Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Cookster15]

There was a step increase in level which occurred after 2020. Geraint Thomas is a good benchmark. Thomas was 32 when he won the Tour in 2018. When Thomas won the stage to Alpe D'Huez that year they climbed that mountain in about 41 minutes. Four years later, at 36 years of age, Thomas climbed the same mountain two minutes faster (finishing with Pog and Vingegaard) - that is huge. No way is this explained by how they raced the climb. It can only be explained by clinic matters.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

@Cookster15 As others already mentioned 2020 was the breakthrough year. The Tour was super fast on climbs and included a proper thermonuclear performance at the end by none other than young, tender Teddy.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

Thomas was 32 when he won the Tour in 2018. When Thomas won the stage to Alpe D'Huez that year they climbed that mountain in about 41 minutes. Four years later, at 36 years of age, Thomas climbed the same mountain two minutes faster (finishing with Pog and Vingegaard) - that is huge. No way is this explained by how they raced the climb. It can only be explained by clinic matters.

Tactics, pace before the climb, fatigue all play a part. For example, in 2018 they went up to Col de la Croix de Fer 1:30min faster than in 2022. The Galibier was also in economic mode in 2022. Everything was geared to Alpe d'Huez.

If fcking Chris Froome could finish third on a stage where there were 3 HCs in 2022 then you'd suspect the pace before the Alpe d'huez was low. While the 2018's stage was hard from the start.

 

[Blobs]

If you go back to my first comment, you will see that I was talking about the golden years of Sky, when the UCI president was a British friendly & not the post-Cookson era. I have stated my theory, clearly writing down the period I mean. If you disagree with it, that's fine, but stop moving the goalposts just to contradict me.

It's also confusing that you're simultaneously saying that "Geraint Thomas is also better in his mid 30's than he was in his prime" and that "his level fall off a cliff for a while".

Anyway enough of this subject and let's get back to the original topic Pogacar and UAE.

I believe I understand your theory. That Sky had access to the same doping methods that the top riders of today use, right? I'm just saying I don't think that adds up, and arguing why I believe that. I'm not moving any goalposts. There aren't any goalposts to move.

I'm not sure what's confusing about my statement about Thomas. He clearly "peaked" in 2018, declined ("fell off a cliff) in 19-21, but then came back stronger than ever at the Tour at 36. Hope that clears it up.

But yes, we've undeniably veered off topic here

To respond to your first sentence, hyping Landa (whether serious or tongue in cheek) is a CN forums meme, as you can see by the frequent (but somewhat obscure to an outsider) comments (such as #freelanda, Landissimo!), whenever he does something good or bad in a race

Okay thanks. I don't see how that's at all relevant to the point I was making though.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

I believe I understand your theory. That Sky had access to the same doping methods that the top riders of today use, right? I'm just saying I don't think that adds up, and arguing why I believe that. I'm not moving any goalposts. There aren't any goalposts to move.

I'm not sure what's confusing about my statement about Thomas. He clearly "peaked" in 2018, declined ("fell off a cliff) in 19-21, but then came back stronger than ever at the Tour at 36. Hope that clears it up.

But yes, we've undeniably veered off topic here

Okay thanks. I don't see how that's at all relevant to the point I was making though.

- You changed the subject to post-Cookson era. So yes, you keep moving the goalposts. My points were about the golden years of Sky when they were untouchable. Froome-era.

- You claim that the guy who finished 2nd in the 2019 TdF behind his teammate after crashing weeks before and his start was in doubt, fell off a cliff.

- In 2020, finished second in the Tirreno. Fourth at the ITT World Championships. He started the Giro as the biggest favourite, after ITT he was the best placed amongst the GC guys. He crashed again, the race was won comfortably by his helper, which immediately suggests that without a crash Thomas wins it.

- In 2021, 3rd Catalunya, 1st Romandie, 3rd Dauphiné. Naturally the donkey crashed again in the Tour and his shoulder popped out. His teammate was there in third place with Pog and Vingegaard, again suggesting the Skineos guys were okay there.

So I recommend you watch the races instead of just checking the Tour de France results especially if you're talking about a guy who falls more than a drunk british teenager. Thomas' performance has not declined in 2019-21, he is just simply a donkey.

Also, some people try to prove their point with cherry-picked statistics like comparing times on the Alpe d'Huez. Thomas rode the Alpe d'Huez stage in 2018 faster than in 2022 when he finished with Pog and Vingegaard. Despite the fact that the 2018 stage was longer and much harder, as the first climb in 2018, Col de la Madeleine, is harder than Galibier in 2022 + there was an extra Cat 2 climb in 2018.

 

[Netserk]

- You changed the subject to post-Cookson era. So yes, you keep moving the goalposts. My points were about the golden years of Sky when they were untouchable. Froome-era.

- You claim that the guy who finished 2nd in the 2019 TdF behind his teammate after crashing weeks before and his start was in doubt, fell off a cliff.

- In 2020, finished second in the Tirreno. Fourth at the ITT World Championships. He started the Giro as the biggest favourite, after ITT he was the best placed amongst the GC guys. He crashed again, the race was won comfortably by his helper, which immediately suggests that without a crash Thomas wins it.

- In 2021, 3rd Catalunya, 1st Romandie, 3rd Dauphiné. Naturally the donkey crashed again in the Tour and his shoulder popped out. His teammate was there in third place with Pog and Vingegaard, again suggesting the Skineos guys were okay there.

So I recommend you watch the races instead of just checking the Tour de France results especially if you're talking about a guy who falls more than a drunk british teenager. Thomas' performance has not declined in 2019-21, he is just simply a donkey.

Also, some people try to prove their point with cherry-picked statistics like comparing times on the Alpe d'Huez. Thomas rode the Alpe d'Huez stage in 2018 faster than in 2022 when he finished with Pog and Vingegaard. Despite the fact that the 2018 stage was longer and much harder, as the first climb in 2018, Col de la Madeleine, is harder than Galibier in 2022 + there was an extra Cat 2 climb in 2018.

I completely agree with your description of Thomas's trajectory. He's been a beast since his Tour win, but with varied luck (and efforts outside his main targets).

The only climb in 2018 where he went full gas was La Rosière, after that it was cruise control and mission Froome on the podium. That makes it hard to judge just how fast he was back then (and Alpe d'Huez is of no use). Still, it's at the very least plausible that in absolute terms he was faster on the climbs in 2022 than 2018. Just like the whole peloton is faster now than back then.

 

[Blobs]

- You changed the subject to post-Cookson era. So yes, you keep moving the goalposts. My points were about the golden years of Sky when they were untouchable. Froome-era.

- You claim that the guy who finished 2nd in the 2019 TdF behind his teammate after crashing weeks before and his start was in doubt, fell off a cliff.

- In 2020, finished second in the Tirreno. Fourth at the ITT World Championships. He started the Giro as the biggest favourite, after ITT he was the best placed amongst the GC guys. He crashed again, the race was won comfortably by his helper, which immediately suggests that without a crash Thomas wins it.

- In 2021, 3rd Catalunya, 1st Romandie, 3rd Dauphiné. Naturally the donkey crashed again in the Tour and his shoulder popped out. His teammate was there in third place with Pog and Vingegaard, again suggesting the Skineos guys were okay there.

So I recommend you watch the races instead of just checking the Tour de France results especially if you're talking about a guy who falls more than a drunk british teenager. Thomas' performance has not declined in 2019-21, he is just simply a donkey.

Also, some people try to prove their point with cherry-picked statistics like comparing times on the Alpe d'Huez. Thomas rode the Alpe d'Huez stage in 2018 faster than in 2022 when he finished with Pog and Vingegaard. Despite the fact that the 2018 stage was longer and much harder, as the first climb in 2018, Col de la Madeleine, is harder than Galibier in 2022 + there was an extra Cat 2 climb in 2018.

- I didn't change the subject. Your initial post didn't mention Cookson-era. Just "Sky era". I assumed that included their Tour wins in 18 & 19. Anyway, it doesn't really matter. My initial response was to this sentence: "Doping methods probably haven't changed much since the days of Sky, the main difference being that more natural talent and better responders are winning."

So unless you're saying that they had access to modern doping methods in the Cookson era, but then lost them after that, it doesn't matter. If they knew about it under Cookson, they still knew about it after.

- To me he didn't look as good in 2019 as in 2018. There might be circumstances that explain that. In 2020 he prepared specifically for the Tour, but failed to even get picked for the team. That's what I meant by falling off a cliff. What would have happened in the Giro is pure speculation, but he might have done well there, with how weak the field was. We'll never know

- I do watch races, so no need for the condescending tone. Let's discuss politely as adults.

- I don't know where you have your stats from. Thomas climbed the Alpe 2 minutes faster in 2022 than he did 2018

Geraint Thomas was Stronger in the Tour de France 2022 compared to his 2018 Victory - Lanterne Rouge

In the Tour de France 2022, Geraint Thomas displayed strong climbing performances throughout the three weeks, finishing third in the general classification behind Pogačar and Vingegaard. Standing on the podium in Paris was nothing new for the Welshman, who won Le Tour in 2018 and came second in...

lanternerouge.com

His numbers seem to indicate that he had a peak in the late 10's. Then a decline in the early 20's. (I'll concede that "fell off a cliff" might have been an exaggeration), and then a new, much higher, peak from 2022 at 36 years of age.

 

[Ripper]

Ba ha ha ha ha.

Back on topic. Hat trick demolition time. It's like somebody watched E3 on TV yesterday and decided I'm going solo as well, I'm going to put even more time on everyone ... so there!! I want more footage from the side so he can turn and smile and talk to the camera.

An honest question here - why the gushing love on the RR forum for one of the more obviously cranked riders? Is it just to boyish charisma that provides a suspension of disbelief?

Other than that, interesting race to tune into. Fisticuffs between riders and soigneurs taking people out!

 

[fbjim]

It's always like that. Even doped riders aren't immune to the forces of popularity and fandom. There's a reason some doped riders get forgiven and some don't.

Also speaking personally, the first tours I seriously followed were 2006 and 2007, and I got hooked. I may be projecting, but I think there's an entire generation of fan who consider this kind of thing part of the drama to an extent.

 

[topcat]

 

[zlev11]

Ba ha ha ha ha.

Back on topic. Hat trick demolition time. It's like somebody watched E3 on TV yesterday and decided I'm going solo as well, I'm going to put even more time on everyone ... so there!! I want more footage from the side so he can turn and smile and talk to the camera.

An honest question here - why the gushing love on the RR forum for one of the more obviously cranked riders? Is it just to boyish charisma that provides a suspension of disbelief?

Other than that, interesting race to tune into. Fisticuffs between riders and soigneurs taking people out!

people like the way he races. he attacks from far out and creates carnage. it's a lot more fun to watch than Team Sky suffocating every race until the final 5k.

it will be interesting to see how he's treated when he ends the Giro on Stage 8 though.

 

[fbjim]

he also had the "decency" to completely explode last year at the Tour, meaning the "most unbeatable rider" crown passed to the guy who's also on the team with ridiculous domestique support.

but really it's just the vague dynamics of sports fandom

 

[Oldermanish]

Thomas was dropped on several occasions in 2019. I'm sure he would have done more watts if he could. In 2020 he wasn't even good enough to get picked for the Tour team. If Sky already had all the ingredients everyone is using today, then why did his level fall off a cliff for a while?

Equipments and supplement, and so on, is always gradually improving. Unless I've missed some huge breakthrough in one or more of those things, they simply don't explain a sudden explosion in everybody's level. What we're currently seeing looks more like what happened in the 90's.

This and actual professional training plans can account for the uplift of much performance. The younger riders are much better trained than in the past, too.
The 90's introduced a pharma aid that everyone knew about that was poorly responded to by the UCI....and many other controlling bodies. There may be something in the peloton that is less than legal and retroactive testing may get it but this widespread parity hasn't revealed anything other than better work ethic so far.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

it will be interesting to see how he's treated when he ends the Giro on Stage 2* though.

*Fixed it for you.

 

[Extinction]

This and actual professional training plans can account for the uplift of much performance. The younger riders are much better trained than in the past, too.
The 90's introduced a pharma aid that everyone knew about that was poorly responded to by the UCI....and many other controlling bodies. There may be something in the peloton that is less than legal and retroactive testing may get it but this widespread parity hasn't revealed anything other than better work ethic so far.

Although it's hard to imagine that better equipment and training plans alone mostly account for the higher level of performance compared to a past that was rife with doping in the peloton. If the pack were let's say relatively clean, then I believe you'd expect to see clean riders with better equipment and training regimes coming nearer to the doped blood-vector enhanced performances of 20-25 years ago, not outperform them. In the specific case of Tadej, I can never forget that he has the same Mauro around him as Riccardo Ricco and Leonardo Piepoli. He's clearly very talented, but what he's doing is extraterrestrial and that in this sport is simply too much to put one's faith in.

 

[Peyroteo94]

people like the way he races. he attacks from far out and creates carnage. it's a lot more fun to watch than Team Sky suffocating every race until the final 5k.

it will be interesting to see how he's treated when he ends the Giro on Stage 8 though.

He will have 3 minutes after stage 3.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Turns out, I don't really like smiley, happy dopers, anymore than I like angry, vengeful dopers.

 

[Extinction]

Now there's not even asking questions anyore. Everything is happy, doping happened 20 years ago, all the while the most ridiculous *** is happening in front of our eyes every fuckign day.

I was just about to post something along these lines, but you beat me to it. It's true, I don't hear the journos asking Tadej the hard and uncomfortable questions about his performances that was the standard praxis going back to the Festina affair. To me this indicates they don't want to rock the boat, because with a Gianetti in the organization they can't possibly have been duped. But how long can Pog keep performing like this before someone starts questioning the legitimacy of it all?

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Ironically starting to dislike it more.

With dudes like Froome, it's like at least people knew it was joke, or they'd sooner or later admit it. Or they'd just go to "clentadopucci" ***.

Now there's not even asking questions anyore. Everything is happy, doping happened 20 years ago, all the while the most ridiculous *** is happening in front of our eyes every fuckign day.

I miss the Froome days. Instead of 3km of action for the win in the Froome days, we now get 5 seconds of Pogacar riding away seated with a smile on his face with a 50% chance of the TV directors missing it as well. Race over. Everyone knows it. And people only get excited because they bought into the cult of Pogacar. Or the cult of Vingegaard. Or the cult of MvdP

"He's so nice".

I'd also be nice if I was the biggest doper out there, everyone worshipped me, and I had assurance i wasn't getting busted any time soon.

My biggest problem with Armstrong was the way he tried to destroy people who were just telling what they honesely saw...and his fans were obnoxious and blind. At the same time, I always disliked riders like Voigt because he got to dope. and cover it with saying "Shut up legs," and everyone was just okay with it. Then, Skybots took the mantle. Pog, VIngegaard, and MvdP fans are generally less rabid than those camps, but yes, the racing was a bit better in times of doping past. Pog completely lost me with his Strade win...what he did was impossible by an uninhanced human being. I find myself more and more gravitating to races like Cape Epic and some of the major gravel events...sure, I'm no pollyannaish enough to believe those races are free from doping, but they are more competitive races. And riders like Beers and Swensen seem more plausibly clean.

It's also hard, because I do like Wout, but again, I am not foolish enough to believe that a lot of the things we have seen out if him were not more than the product of just training at altitude. The thing I see in him is the bucking of the current trend of everyone being best friends. Pidcock in there as well, as I think his comments after Strade would have gotten him a ban on this forum for Clinic talk, outside of the Clinic. (side note, not really about this: Strange seeing Iserbyt on the route yesterday, cheering on Wout)

Anyway...I guess my hypocracy is that I still do (and will) get up really early here in CA, to watch any race. I pay Flo, Max, Peacock, and was paying GCN to watch it all...so I am an active part of the problem, as the UCI has an interest in promoting a "clean" sport, so people like me will keep paying for sh!t associated with professional road cycling.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

I was just about to post something along these lines, but you beat me to it. It's true, I don't hear the journos asking Tadej the hard and uncomfortable questions about his performances that was the standard praxis going back to the Festina affair. To me this indicates they don't want to rock the boat, because with a Gianetti in the organization they can't possibly have been duped. But how long can Pog keep performing like this before someone starts questioning the legitimacy of it all.

If he does go to the Tour this year, and wins...they need to closely examine his DNA...because he looks to be setting up for that. Of course, he can always point to Kuss and say "If a domestique can ride all 3 GT's, and still win the last one, then why can't I win two?" I actually do think he will beat Vingegaard this year...and there will be delight in the masses, because the Evil Empire will have had their Death Star blown up...

 

[Extinction]

My biggest problem with Armstrong was the way he tried to destroy people who were just telling what they honesely saw...and his fans were obnoxious and blind. At the same time, I always disliked riders like Voigt because he got to dope. and cover it with saying "Shut up legs," and everyone was just okay with it. Then, Skybots took the mantle. Pog, VIngegaard, and MvdP fans are generally less rabid than those camps, but yes, the racing was a bit better in times of doping past. Pog completely lost me with his Strade win...what he did was impossible by an uninhanced human being. I find myself more and more gravitating to races like Cape Epic and some of the major gravel events...sure, I'm no pollyannaish enough to believe those races are free from doping, but they are more competitive races. And riders like Beers and Swensen seem more plausibly clean.

It's also hard, because I do like Wout, but again, I am not foolish enough to believe that a lot of the things we have seen out if him were more than the product of just training at altitude. The thing I see in him is the bucking of the current trend of everyone being best friends. Pidcock in there as well, as I think his comments after Strade would have gotten him a ban on this forum for Clinic talk, outside of the Clinic. (side note, not really about this: Strange seeing Iserbyt on the route yesterday, cheering on Wout)

Anyway...I guess my hypocracy is that I still do (and will) get up really early here in CA, to watch any race. I pay Flo, Max, Peacock, and was paying GCN to watch it all...so I am an active part of the problem, as the UCI has an interest in promoting a "clean" sport, so people like me will keep paying for sh!t associated with professional road cycling.

Well, we can still find following the races entertaining, because we love cycling, but also think the spectacle is not free of illegal enhancement. Unfortunately, if you had to know it was all clean and within the rules to continue watching, you'd only deprive yourself of a real pleasure. One needs to be a bit cynical to follow cycling, but I draw the line at mechanical doping. If cycling becomes a motor sport, I won't tune in for the charade. Hopefully Pogacar has nothing to do with that, but with certain performances I do wonder.

 

[Extinction]

Exactly.

I accepted doping as part of the sport a long time ago. But now it absolutely feels like the field isn't level at all, and it starts to make you think it's more than just everyone for themselves wild west doping going on.

It feels like even in doping it's completely unfair.

It could be that something new is going on to which currently few have access or there are some super-responders to the latest gen blood enhancers.

 

[Cookster15]

Well, we can still find following the races entertaining, because we love cycling, but also think the spectacle is not free of illegal enhancement. Unfortunately, if you had to know it was all clean and within the rules to continue watching, you'd only deprive yourself of a real pleasure. One needs to be a bit cynical to follow cycling, but I draw the line at mechanical doping. If cycling becomes a motor sport, I won't tune in for the charade. Hopefully Pogacar has nothing to do with that, but with certain performances I do wonder.

I draw the line at fair competition - doping or not (mechanical doping would destroy the sport). Even if doping was fully legal it wouldn't be fair. It would be an arms race led by teams with the best doctors and money to find and attract the best responders. But I still say it was too much coincidence at Vingegaard's rise coinciding with the 2020 Tdf result and Roglic's injury.

 

[Extinction]

I draw the line at fair competition - doping or not (mechanical doping would destroy the sport). Even if doping was fully legal it wouldn't be fair. It would be an arms race led by teams with the best doctors and money to find and attract the best responders. But I still say it was too much coincidence at Vingegaard's rise coinciding with the 2020 Tdf result and Roglic's injury.

To the bolded, it has been and still is that way as far as I can tell. Pog and Vingo seem to fit the bill precisely.

 

[Oldermanish]

Although it's hard to imagine that better equipment and training plans alone mostly account for the higher level of performance compared to a past that was rife with doping in the peloton. If the pack were let's say relatively clean, then I believe you'd expect to see clean riders with better equipment and training regimes to coming nearer to the doped blood-vector enhanced performances of 20-25 years ago, not outperform them. In the specific case of Tadej, I can never forget that he has the same Mauro around him as Riccardo Ricco and Leonardo Piepoli. He's clearly very talented, but what he's doing is extraterrestrial and that in this sport is simply too much to put one's faith in.

That's why I said it could account for "uplift of much performance..." That said he got beat at MSR and the gaps he's putting on Catalunya fields wouldn't be as likely with another ET player to screw with tactics. Like Jonas he's the main player in the race. The gap to Landa and Bernal isn't so ridiculous, is it?