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  #51  
Old 11-02-12, 08:35
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Which is why change can only be driven by external stakeholders. There has been more or less nothing from anyone with a seat at the UCI calling for change. In the current state, whether Pat stays or goes is irrelevant as the next man will be to him what he was to Hein.

Only if those who can pressure the UCI get together and demand reform is it possible for a shift to occur. Sadly there isn't much will there either.
I like the idea of some external watchdog type entity - small, agile and powerful. Help craft the mechanisms to run the sport, and then ensure they are adhered to and / or modified to suit as new / better mechanisms become available.

The 4.5 month delay for XZTT and Rasmussen incidents - whether the rider is guilty or not - should have resulted in severe recrimination for the responsible party, and did not, nor will they.

This external org could be in charge of results management too, and leave the UCI to administer and "grow" the sport.

External org sets up checks and balances, and more than anything, provides a safe and respectful whistleblower function for anyone in the sport.

Thinking as I'm posting here, but this is akin to what I have been imagining.

WADA do not enforce their edicts - the passport is a good example of that - and even if they did, what's the mechanism for "punishing" a wayward body? When Deck Pound has a go at cycling, UCI sued him ffs.
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  #52  
Old 11-02-12, 08:44
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Originally Posted by Ferminal View Post
Which is why change can only be driven by external stakeholders. There has been more or less nothing from anyone with a seat at the UCI calling for change. In the current state, whether Pat stays or goes is irrelevant as the next man will be to him what he was to Hein.

Only if those who can pressure the UCI get together and demand reform is it possible for a shift to occur. Sadly there isn't much will there either.
For orgs like the UCI, I agree that the pressure to change has to come from external stakeholders, because the internal accountability mechanisms are dysfunctional.

Pat going improves accountability a little, primarily because who ever replaces him will know if they do the same thing their head will roll. It's not enough though. There needs to be some definitive targets which the UCI is held accountable to.
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  #53  
Old 11-02-12, 08:57
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Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
I like the idea of some external watchdog type entity - small, agile and powerful. Help craft the mechanisms to run the sport, and then ensure they are adhered to and / or modified to suit as new / better mechanisms become available.

The 4.5 month delay for XZTT and Rasmussen incidents - whether the rider is guilty or not - should have resulted in severe recrimination for the responsible party, and did not, nor will they.

This external org could be in charge of results management too, and leave the UCI to administer and "grow" the sport.

External org sets up checks and balances, and more than anything, provides a safe and respectful whistleblower function for anyone in the sport.

Thinking as I'm posting here, but this is akin to what I have been imagining.

WADA do not enforce their edicts - the passport is a good example of that - and even if they did, what's the mechanism for "punishing" a wayward body? When Deck Pound has a go at cycling, UCI sued him ffs.
The watchdog is supposed to be Congress. They are supposed to be looking after their members interests by holding the UCI accountable.

The problem is congress members don't understand their role, and the structure prevents them from fulfilling it anyway.

No independent organisation can be as effective a watchdog, at least not on an ongoing basis. Setting up the powers of the independent org is massively fraught, and who is the independent org accountable to? The UCI? It should be accountable to the grass roots riders....which would have to come through the feds......

Local riders have to hold the feds accountable, the feds have to hold the UCI accountable on the riders behalf. People would rather be riding their bikes though, so it has to be made easy, and there needs to be additional checks and balances.

Sorry to rant, NGO governance is kinda in my wheelhouse.
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  #54  
Old 11-02-12, 09:04
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Sorry to rant, NGO governance is kinda in my wheelhouse.
I don't see it as rant. Passionate dialog at worst.

Please continue. I told you I was working on things this end, and this is it, in bits and pieces. The more disagreement and explained, constructive feedback the better. Sharpening the ideas is what I am all about here.

Agreed on teh watchdog powers and accountability. I was thinking to WADA / IOC, but to be honest it's the single weakest part of my "system", but also the single element that makes or breaks it - for now. Having a single point of failure is teh dumb.

As soon as people get involved, things can fail. That's optimism right there hah!

I'll keep thinking - there's lots of other elements to cover off.
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  #55  
Old 11-02-12, 09:43
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I was thinking of alternatives to every federation having the same weight ... what other options are there? Based on population? Then the USA would outweigh all of Europe. China, a relatively non-cycle racing nation, would outweigh everyone else. Perhaps based on the number of pro licence holders? Then Europe would have a stranglehold and there would never be any expansion of racing outside of Europe.
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  #56  
Old 11-02-12, 10:00
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I was thinking of alternatives to every federation having the same weight ... what other options are there? Based on population? Then the USA would outweigh all of Europe. China, a relatively non-cycle racing nation, would outweigh everyone else. Perhaps based on the number of pro licence holders? Then Europe would have a stranglehold and there would never be any expansion of racing outside of Europe.
Registered rider population? Pro rider population? Combinations of all three (rec, amateur racer, pro)?

Guam having equal weight to Australia or even NZ seems a little silly.

If we take a step back - what's the point of the condfederation in the first place? How much say do those presidents actually get in what goes on with the UCI?

Seems Pat does wtf ever he wants, regardless.

If we lose the confederation entirely, what have we lost? Need to consult the minutes of the meetings to confirm, but the whole thing looks like a beard to me (Chris Carmichael reference).
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  #57  
Old 11-02-12, 14:03
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I can't disagree that Guam having equal weight to Aus is silly. But again, if you choose a system based on the number of pro racers, for example, then the European countries would historically have had a stranglehold on pro cycling and could have ensured that racing never expanded beyond Europe. Or, looking to the future, China "registers" a million pro racers next year and thus drives pro racing thereafter.
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  #58  
Old 11-02-12, 21:26
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Originally Posted by MAVerick View Post
I can't disagree that Guam having equal weight to Aus is silly. But again, if you choose a system based on the number of pro racers, for example, then the European countries would historically have had a stranglehold on pro cycling and could have ensured that racing never expanded beyond Europe. Or, looking to the future, China "registers" a million pro racers next year and thus drives pro racing thereafter.
Agreed. Which is why I suggested

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Combinations of all three (rec, amateur racer, pro)?
Each registration at the Nat Fed feeds money back into the UCI. Proteams pay a heap of money to the UCI for BP and other expenses.

So if China did add 1M "pro" racers next year, hallelujah It's not really a scenario I am concerned about
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  #59  
Old 11-03-12, 01:09
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The 4.5 month delay for XZTT and Rasmussen incidents - whether the rider is guilty or not - should have resulted in severe recrimination for the responsible party, and did not, nor will they.
alby davis was also made to sit out a truckload of time, and come back thru the minors with Mitsubishi Jartazi

lots else got stood down and could not get a hall pass from the you see eye in aigle

the all seeing eye

Benthem first had the theory about the panopticon, before they stuck it in Aigle. Then JV thought it was a good idea, he took equal parts to boulder and gerona http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon
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  #60  
Old 11-03-12, 03:30
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M Tomalaris indicates:
... (well the general jist of it, i can't remember his words exactly) "well even if he did, he bought so much money and attention to the sport I think we can safely say most of us here today wouldn't be here without him."
basically said that, copying the Armstrong soundbite "done too much for so many people". Think Toma mentioned cancer too. That gives him a double word score eh.

Compare and contrast Toma's take on Vino, Ullrich, Landis, Rasmussen and the invective heaped on them
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I just hope that rather than hate, judge, or feel cheated, that our community will choose to do the same - to move forward without forgetting and to ride, not for greed or fame, but for the unbridled joy and love that the simple act of cycling brings us.
that bombastic tosh is courtesy of Allen Lim
Choose life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family.
Renton Trainspotting.
Choose Life
t-shirts George Michael before busted by the bobbies trawling Hyde Park for glory holes.
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