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  #321  
Old 11-03-12, 20:55
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Originally Posted by armchairclimber View Post
Good article. He's allus bin a bit of a moody get.

I can't see him putting in the hard yards over this winter to hit anything like the same peak next year....unless winning the big 3 motivates him. It was clear that the family sacrifices to win the tour were probably too much...can't see him doing it again.
I won't even bold any of that in response. Just ****ing hilarious. Every word. From pathetic to ridiculous back to pathetic in one post.
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  #322  
Old 11-03-12, 21:32
Velo_vicar Velo_vicar is offline
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Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
Spoilt, self-entitled brat. Like he's the only person who has to handle celebrity.

What I find telling is the apparent lack of team support - helping him cope with the lifestyle "upgrade".

A bit "Thanks for the kudos, Brad, but you're on your own now fella".
Do you think this kind of comment might undermine your 'Wiggins is doping' arguments? As it might suggest that a subjective personal dislike/hatred of Wiggins is driving your opposition to him and so weighting any conclusions to 'evidence' that you find.
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  #323  
Old 11-03-12, 21:41
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Originally Posted by Velo_vicar View Post
Do you think this kind of comment might undermine your 'Wiggins is doping' arguments? As it might suggest that a subjective personal dislike/hatred of Wiggins is driving your opposition to him and so weighting any conclusions to 'evidence' that you find.
I have to admit the hate in the response to the article which has nowt to do with doping suspicions kindof reveals where these ppl are coming from.
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  #324  
Old 11-03-12, 21:44
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Originally Posted by Velo_vicar View Post
Do you think this kind of comment might undermine your 'Wiggins is doping' arguments? As it might suggest that a subjective personal dislike/hatred of Wiggins is driving your opposition to him and so weighting any conclusions to 'evidence' that you find.
Possibly, yes.

However there is ample evidence of the spoilt nature of this person pre-2009: ongoing pro team contracts with 0 results is one. Not only 0 results, but a reputation as someone who was regularly drunk. This is not something I am making up.

Receiving ~50,000 GBP from BC for doing 6-12 x 4km pursuits each year, and (for example) having a BC team dedicated to him for one 4.1km stage of one race in 2006 (where he came 21st) is another.

Note, however, that only 1 sentence was dedicated to denigrating Brad's attitude, and the rest of the post is sticking a finger into the Team's chest for their lack of after-success care for their rider. If I really hated Brad, uneqivocally, why would I care that his team does not appear to be looking after him at all? Or providing on-going support.

Ok it could be perceived as an opportunistic spray at anything British, granted. You'll have to take my word that it's not.

If you are suggesting I hate Brad, you'd be wrong. My feelings of dislike are stronger for apologists like armchairclimber than they are for Brad. What I dislike is dishonesty - and doping and succeeding via doping is dishonest.

Brad is causing other riders to miss out on their just rewards, through his doping to win. ie treating other riders poorly.

Sky are also treating their rider poorly (IMO). A little attention to detail would surely have lead you to think Brad is about to get elevated savagely into the public eye and some help wtih coping with that would not go astray. Alas, there appears to be no attention to any detail of this sort at all.

Brad is a rider hurting other riders through his actions.
Sky is allowing their rider to be hurt through their inaction.

I dislike both (doping actions and team inaction).
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Last edited by Dear Wiggo; 11-03-12 at 21:49.
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  #325  
Old 11-03-12, 22:06
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Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
Possibly, yes.

However there is ample evidence of the spoilt nature of this person pre-2009: ongoing pro team contracts with 0 results is one. Not only 0 results, but a reputation as someone who was regularly drunk. This is not something I am making up.

Receiving ~50,000 GBP from BC for doing 6-12 x 4km pursuits each year, and (for example) having a BC team dedicated to him for one 4.1km stage of one race in 2006 (where he came 21st) is another.

Note, however, that only 1 sentence was dedicated to denigrating Brad's attitude, and the rest of the post is sticking a finger into the Team's chest for their lack of after-success care for their rider. If I really hated Brad, uneqivocally, why would I care that his team does not appear to be looking after him at all? Or providing on-going support.

Ok it could be perceived as an opportunistic spray at anything British, granted. You'll have to take my word that it's not.

If you are suggesting I hate Brad, you'd be wrong. My feelings of dislike are stronger for apologists like armchairclimber than they are for Brad. What I dislike is dishonesty - and doping and succeeding via doping is dishonest.

Brad is causing other riders to miss out on their just rewards, through his doping to win. ie treating other riders poorly.

Sky are also treating their rider poorly (IMO). A little attention to detail would surely have lead you to think Brad is about to get elevated savagely into the public eye and some help wtih coping with that would not go astray. Alas, there appears to be no attention to any detail of this sort at all.

Brad is a rider hurting other riders through his actions.
Sky is allowing their rider to be hurt through their inaction.

I dislike both (doping actions and team inaction).
Dear Dear Wiggo

Is there anything that could prove to you that he hasn't doped. Any evidence that might change your mind? because a closed mind does not a good investigator make. You state elsewhere that you got interested in looking into doping when BW made his 'bone idle w*nkers comment. It seems that you have taken it very personally and hold a real personal hatred towards BW which will make an objective look at evidence very difficult and i'm afraid does effect the credibility of any arguments you present.

BTW the 50000 lottery money was given exactly for the aim of restricting BW to 6-12 4k persuits. It is the whole point of lottery funding which is given to athletes who have the best chance of getting a gold. The money means an athlete doesn't have to be distracted by things which might affect his medal chances. (like a Road race career?) It is not selfish getting that money it simply means he is considered an elite athlete. If he didn't get the gold he wouldn't have got any more money. If that was selfishness what about Chris Hoy who would have got it for even less metres covered. Having said that i think spoiltness/driveness is probably a marker of all elite athletes.
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  #326  
Old 11-03-12, 22:23
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Originally Posted by Velo_vicar View Post
Dear Dear Wiggo

Is there anything that could prove to you that he hasn't doped. Any evidence that might change your mind? because a closed mind does not a good investigator make. You state elsewhere that you got interested in looking into doping when BW made his 'bone idle w*nkers comment. It seems that you have taken it very personally and hold a real personal hatred towards BW which will make an objective look at evidence very difficult and i'm afraid does effect the credibility of any arguments you present.

BTW the 50000 lottery money was given exactly for the aim of restricting BW to 6-12 4k persuits. It is the whole point of lottery funding which is given to athletes who have the best chance of getting a gold. The money means an athlete doesn't have to be distracted by things which might affect his medal chances. (like a Road race career?) It is not selfish getting that money it simply means he is considered an elite athlete. If he didn't get the gold he wouldn't have got any more money. If that was selfishness what about Chris Hoy who would have got it for even less metres covered. Having said that i think spoiltness/driveness is probably a marker of all elite athletes.
Dear Velo_vicar

Is there anything that could prove to you that Brad doped? Any evidence that might change your mind? Because your fanboy status is sticking out like the proverbial.

I wrote "spoilt, self-entitled". Neither of these words is "selfish", although that would also be an apt description of Brad, it is not what I wrote, and not what the lottery funding describes. Spoilt does. Self-entitled does.

You and the rest of the Sky / Wiggins apologists would love to make this about me and my alleged hate, because then you can discredit my arguments without any effort - Oh he's just a hater - and that's your prerogative, but it's lazy. Very Lance 2.0 as well.

If at any stage I tell a lie, or get something wrong, you or anyone else are more than capable of pointing out my error. People have done in the past, and will continue to do so in the future, alas, for I am only human.

I have edited posts once corrected, and acknowledge my mistakes. Krebs Cycle's occassional apopleptic outbursts notwithstanding.

Ryder Hesjedal never called me a bone idle lazy w*nker. How are you going to explain my apparent hatred for him? Because as far as I am concerned, his performance and blood profile from the 2012 Giro are equally as dodgy.

The only thing I hate in here is dishonesty. Unlike some people who leap straight to hate and apply it to the rider on behalf of a poster, lazily; step back a bit, buddy, and realise some of us can hate an action and not the actor.

I offer arguments and theories and constantly get emotional responses in return, but rarely does someone actually try to contest the point or the argument or the theory. And those that do offer counter arguments are typically easily debunked - the l'Avenir stage is a classic example.

So yes, Brad turned me onto the whole doping notion, and yes, as the most prominent set of dogs bits around, his results from 2009 onwards lend themselves to substantial scrutiny. But my efforts are not limited to one rider. And to label those efforts as "hate" is myopic and patently missing the point.
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Last edited by Dear Wiggo; 11-03-12 at 22:57.
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  #327  
Old 11-03-12, 23:53
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Brad doped because he thought Dear Wiggo was a ****er...which probably means I dope too. Or sommat.
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  #328  
Old 11-04-12, 07:08
Velo_vicar Velo_vicar is offline
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Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
Dear Velo_vicar

Is there anything that could prove to you that Brad doped? Any evidence that might change your mind? Because your fanboy status is sticking out like the proverbial.

I wrote "spoilt, self-entitled". Neither of these words is "selfish", although that would also be an apt description of Brad, it is not what I wrote, and not what the lottery funding describes. Spoilt does. Self-entitled does.

You and the rest of the Sky / Wiggins apologists would love to make this about me and my alleged hate, because then you can discredit my arguments without any effort - Oh he's just a hater - and that's your prerogative, but it's lazy. Very Lance 2.0 as well.

If at any stage I tell a lie, or get something wrong, you or anyone else are more than capable of pointing out my error. People have done in the past, and will continue to do so in the future, alas, for I am only human.

I have edited posts once corrected, and acknowledge my mistakes. Krebs Cycle's occassional apopleptic outbursts notwithstanding.

Ryder Hesjedal never called me a bone idle lazy w*nker. How are you going to explain my apparent hatred for him? Because as far as I am concerned, his performance and blood profile from the 2012 Giro are equally as dodgy.

The only thing I hate in here is dishonesty. Unlike some people who leap straight to hate and apply it to the rider on behalf of a poster, lazily; step back a bit, buddy, and realise some of us can hate an action and not the actor.

I offer arguments and theories and constantly get emotional responses in return, but rarely does someone actually try to contest the point or the argument or the theory. And those that do offer counter arguments are typically easily debunked - the l'Avenir stage is a classic example.

So yes, Brad turned me onto the whole doping notion, and yes, as the most prominent set of dogs bits around, his results from 2009 onwards lend themselves to substantial scrutiny. But my efforts are not limited to one rider. And to label those efforts as "hate" is myopic and patently missing the point.
'I am a optimistic realist. I want to think the best of people but have seen enough to know I might be disappointed down the line. 'Evidence' would change my mind, like a team mate being an eye witness (Andreu) or a team helper (o'neil). Or receipts of money being transferred for doping products/advice. Or bullying tactics against clean riders. All the evidence put forward can be read the other way and so it is just 'fanboy' v 'hater' and who can shout the loudest (your winning here).
Some of the 'proof' like 4 sky riders reaching the top of a climb together does look like postal but it is also just good tactics. Every team in the peloton would want to have as many riders as possible at the top of every climb. How they manage this is the debate, that they have managed it is not proof. BTW my favourite accusation ( not one of yours) is that sky looked at their power meters so as not to go to fast and be suspicious.
I am a fan(man) of sky but not obsessively so. I reckon my level of liking is more objective than your hating on this subject. I am realistic enough and watched enough cycling to know I could be disappointed down the line but I would hate to miss genuine 'clean' performances because I had damned the lot of them. Sport is there to enjoy and I enjoy it, with a healthy dose of realism.
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  #329  
Old 11-04-12, 07:39
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'I am a optimistic realist. I want to think the best of people but have seen enough to know I might be disappointed down the line.

I am a fan(man) of sky but not obsessively so.

I reckon my level of liking is more objective than your hating on this subject. I am realistic enough and watched enough cycling to know I could be disappointed down the line but I would hate to miss genuine 'clean' performances because I had damned the lot of them.
Brings to mind an all time Australian classic movie quote: "Tell him he's dreamin"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK9h4gRXX9o
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  #330  
Old 11-04-12, 07:56
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Originally Posted by Velo_vicar View Post
'I am a optimistic realist. I want to think the best of people but have seen enough to know I might be disappointed down the line. 'Evidence' would change my mind, like a team mate being an eye witness (Andreu) or a team helper (o'neil). Or receipts of money being transferred for doping products/advice. Or bullying tactics against clean riders. All the evidence put forward can be read the other way and so it is just 'fanboy' v 'hater' and who can shout the loudest (your winning here).
The same was said of the UK track team managing to all peak simultaneously also - and I think that was by a Brit, said somewhat in awe.

Given the brash showboating by Lance and the subsequent delay between brag and finally pinning something to him - and only because a Gov't had backed a cycling team and it warranted Federal attention - I am very doubtful something similar can happen again. Team mates, I mean.

In the hypothetical where a bike mechanic on the team overhears something or is asked to do something, to whom does he talk about his suspicions / evidence? Is there an avenue for that? BC are Sky are BC. And if said mechanic has no other quals beyond wrenching, what's his job prospects look like if he is
a. unsuccessful in proving but outed in the process
b. successful in proving but outed in the process?

And what impact do the draconian UK libel laws have on this process?

Mike Andersen ended up going to NZ just so he could earn a crust and get some peace and quiet. I'm not saying Wiggins is as diabolical as Lance - not by a longshot - but the circumstances bear comparison.

As for the rider - it would have to be someone in the clique. A well-paid, remotely successful rider due to the "program" who is facing the same prospects as above, except he is complicit in the doping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velo_vicar View Post
Some of the 'proof' like 4 sky riders reaching the top of a climb together does look like postal but it is also just good tactics. Every team in the peloton would want to have as many riders as possible at the top of every climb. How they manage this is the debate, that they have managed it is not proof.
Yes. A good tactic. The Dutch rider ejected from 2008 world track champs won 2 events this year: the Dutch Nationals and some other race. He picked them at the start of the year. That's pretty darn impressive if you ask me. Tactics.

I think their tactic was to ride so hard noone else could attack and most could not keep up. That's not what I call a tactic. It's what I call superior physiology x 4.

I could be missing the tactic to which you refer - so feel free to elucidate there.

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Originally Posted by Velo_vicar View Post
BTW my favourite accusation ( not one of yours) is that sky looked at their power meters so as not to go to fast and be suspicious.
Yep, one of mine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velo_vicar View Post
I am a fan(man) of sky but not obsessively so. I reckon my level of liking is more objective than your hating on this subject. I am realistic enough and watched enough cycling to know I could be disappointed down the line but I would hate to miss genuine 'clean' performances because I had damned the lot of them. Sport is there to enjoy and I enjoy it, with a healthy dose of realism.
Sure. I am happy for you to be better than me at this. I'm a passionate person and pretty darn black and white. Grey is not something I understand or do very well, to my detriment, no doubt. People like (you), Merckx Index, Liberty Seguros, Ferminal and a few others post with far more credibility and are far more even handed, no question.

The "explanations" I have been presented with, here, by PhDs and Sky fans alike are not enough to convince me the Wiggins performance is real.

And the logic that the peloton is clean, therefore the autobusser can now kick everyone's *** from Feb to August, particularly with things like Padua popping up again lead me to doubt the reality of Wiggins' performance.

I want to see the blood profiles of the domestiques - coz that's the most likely "clean = real" performance for me. Finishing the Tour - or any of the GTs - that's epic, I don't care where you finish. Unfortunately, sponsors and even the clean teams, do care, very much and are only interested in winning.
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Last edited by Dear Wiggo; 11-04-12 at 08:18.
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