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  #1961  
Old 11-04-12, 18:28
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Netserk Netserk is offline
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Hi JV.

What is your opinion regarding the point system? (sorry if this has already been answered)
And is there/what is a better alternative?
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Originally Posted by Floyd Landis
Take Bradley Wiggins for example, and his claim that he thought Lance Armstrong was clean up until the reasoned decision. I do have a little sympathy for him. While he's not particularly bright or articulate, if you read between his curse words it's clear that he has insecurities resulting from the fact that despite all the measures he took to win the Tour he wasn't even the strongest rider.
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  #1962  
Old 11-04-12, 18:29
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Benotti69 Benotti69 is offline
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Originally Posted by martinvickers View Post
B

Cycling is NEVER going to be clean.

NEVER.

Neither will athletics, swimming, skiing, football, baseball; any sport where PEDs can provide a boost, there will be boosting, from here till evermore.

That's life, because people are people; flawed, selfish, greedy, scared, human. People cheat in marriages, in business, in hobbies. It's part of the DNA.

So I repeat. Cycling will NEVER, NEVER, be clean.

If that's the standard you want to hold it's future to, do yourself a favour, and find something else to care about. Only disappointment awaits you in this sport.

But while it can never be clean - in the spotless sense - it CAN be cleanER, much cleaner ...

I'm not sure Cycling, between fans, sponsors, media, and yes even riders and teams, has ever had a greater critical mass dedicated on principle to cleaning up the sport. Not when Tommy Simpson suffocated on the Ventoux. Not when the Festina boot opened. Not when riders were dying in their sleep.

So if you are interested in cleanER cycling, we have to learn the difference between skepticism, and cynicism. - the former is an example of wisdom; the latter is a parody of wisdom.

And if you're not - then why are you here?
I dont believe anything will be completely clean where humans are involvd but i want to see the sport arrive to where it is the minority doping and the majority within the sport are anti doping and seen to be anti doping..

I look forward to that day. Not today when the talk is of a cleaner sport, which is not true, but the actions are of a cleaner sport.
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  #1963  
Old 11-04-12, 18:41
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hrotha hrotha is offline
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Originally Posted by JV1973 View Post
EPO is the game changer. The rest is just a waste of time. My opinion regarding my experiences. Anyhow, in 1996, I used EPO, but in such small doses it would be questionable if it helped much. Our doctor was intent on just keeping our hct% level, not increasing it. 1999 was larger doses with the intent of increasing, not just maintaining.

That's the difference.
So from that I gather the question Mont Ventoux gave you the answer for was "How much of a difference a proper doping program makes". But you didn't say anything one or way or the other about certain races serving as testing grounds for teams to put their programs to the test with less risk than at the Tour. Is that a myth, or was it something US Postal did at the time?

Using Formula 1 parlance, the Spanish-speaking hardcore cycling fanbase refers to those riders who would pull incredible performances at the Dauphiné while their leaders were clearly below their normal level "test drivers". It's such a hilarious term I'd love to know if it was actually a thing.
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  #1964  
Old 11-04-12, 18:48
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Zam_Olyas Zam_Olyas is offline
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Originally Posted by hrotha View Post
So from that I gather the question Mont Ventoux gave you the answer for was "How much of a difference a proper doping program makes". But you didn't say anything one or way or the other about certain races serving as testing grounds for teams to put their programs to the test with less risk than at the Tour. Is that a myth, or was it something US Postal did at the time?

Using Formula 1 parlance, the Spanish-speaking hardcore cycling fanbase refers to those riders who would pull incredible performances at the Dauphiné while their leaders were clearly below their normal level "test drivers". It's such a hilarious term I'd love to know if it was actually a thing.
Will that include Suisse 2012?
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  #1965  
Old 11-04-12, 18:59
V3R1T4S V3R1T4S is offline
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Default I don't get this obsession with VO2 max

As JV stated, far more important is lactate metabolism and w/kg at lactate threshold.

Similarily, w/kg at VO2 max is more relevant than just VO2 max the number, as different people have different efficiencies, and nature is clever in the sense that, generally speaking, people with higher VO2 max's have relatively lower efficiencies and vice versa.

JV has stated that in peak form he could hit 360w at FTP at 60-62kg. If we take 60kg that is 6 w/kg. I would guess his VO2 max power would be around 7 w/kg, or around 420 watts at a mass of 60kg. This jives well with a VO2 max of 90 ml/kg/min and assuming he only gets 78w per L of O2 (22.2% efficiency assuming burning 100% glycogen at this point), a fair assumption given his high relative VO2 max.

It sounds like Garmin has their own protocol based on Inigo San Millan (and I would be curious to hear more - this could be considered my "question for JV"), but perhaps one "realistic" test is to have a rider ride 4-5 hours at a tempo over several Cols and then do a one-off, ~30 min effort up a finishing climb. This way efficiency, economy, lactate metabolism, and VO2 max (through lactate threshold as a percentage of VO2 max) are all taken into account in the final performance.

Last edited by V3R1T4S; 11-04-12 at 19:01.
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  #1966  
Old 11-04-12, 19:01
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Originally Posted by V3R1T4S View Post

It sounds like Garmin has their own protocol based on Inigo San Millan (and I would be curious to hear more), but perhaps one realistic "test" is to have a rider ride 4-5 hours at a tempo over several Cols and then do a one-off, ~30 min effort up a finishing climb. This way efficiency, economy, lactate metabolism, and VO2 max (through lactate threshold as a percentage of VO2 max) are all taken into account in the final performance.
Thats what Ferrari had Cadel Evans doing wasnt it?
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  #1967  
Old 11-04-12, 19:07
V3R1T4S V3R1T4S is offline
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Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
Thats what Ferrari had Cadel Evans doing wasnt it?
Yeah, sort of. The problem is how do you objectively measure the performance. Ferrari was using lactate readings and VAM. However, a lot of riding both dehydrates the rider (causing higher VAMs) and reduces lactate output (admittedly, for reasons I do not 100% understand, but Coggan brought up this issue in a thread of his on "Ferrari's Magic" or similar).

So you would *expect* to both have a higher VAM and a lower lactate reading for the same power output every time, assuming the rider didn't crack during the effort.

I would think just straight up wattage and w/kg is a repeatable and objective output to measure.

I am a scientist but not an exercise physiologist, so perhaps acoggan or krebs or someone else who is can fill in the gaps and point out errors in this reasoning.

Last edited by V3R1T4S; 11-04-12 at 19:23. Reason: clarification
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  #1968  
Old 11-04-12, 19:53
theyoungest theyoungest is offline
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Originally Posted by JV1973 View Post
Thomas was using rather sophisticated blood doping up until 2008. It was materially changing his performances in a large way. VDV was not. He used lower doses with lower frequency and stopped earlier. And never blood doped. So, while ethically, it's the same, from a +/- standpoint on performance he gained less than Dekker. Therefor, I never doubted VDV's ability to compete clean. Thomas was more in doubt, for me. I could be wrong. That's why we tested him more.

I do have high hopes for TD's 2013 season. We'll see...

JV
Thomas Dekker did blood doping? Ah, that's news, to me at least. I thought just (dyn)EPO.
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  #1969  
Old 11-04-12, 20:07
Frosty Frosty is offline
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Originally Posted by theyoungest View Post
Thomas Dekker did blood doping? Ah, that's news, to me at least. I thought just (dyn)EPO.
Was linked with Humanplasma although i dont know what came of that

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/25...g-scandal.aspx
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  #1970  
Old 11-04-12, 21:25
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Dear Wiggo Dear Wiggo is offline
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Originally Posted by JV1973 View Post
It's what evil and shadowy monsters like myself do. Along with trying to take over the [cycling] world!!!
Fixed that for you.

Quote:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/repo...eakaway-league
The UCI has created its own race organising company, Global Cycling Promotion SA, to run the Tour of Beijing and President Pat McQuaid has always rubbished reports of a breakaway league. However, Garmin-Sharp team manager and head of the AIGCP team's association Jonathan Vaughters believes teams should get a share in television revenue to help them survive loss of sponsorship.
Quote:
http://road.cc/content/news/68089-uc...eakaway-league
The idea behind it lies in a longstanding dispute between leading professional teams, represented by the AIGCP which is chaired by Slipstream Sports CEO and Garmin-Sharp manager Jonathan Vaughters, and the UCI, with teams wanting a greater say in how the sport is run.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19956995
British cyclist David Millar says it is in the "back of my mind" to become the president of the International Cycling Union (UCI) in the future to help clean up the sport.

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Originally Posted by JV1973 View Post
Btw - as I've asked before, please do some research on reticulocyte variations before commenting. Your comments on the topic, as usual, demonstrate ignorance.
Did that weeks ago. I started by asking you - as you appear to speak from experience and / or knowledge on the subject. You offered 2 suggestions, from around a dozen you claimed to have, and ended by saying "I don't know" - which I took to mean you didn't know which of the dozen reasons it was. So my research was asking you. Then I asked the Internet. Now I am coming back and saying "hypoxia? really? from a 34 minute TT?"

Here is one way to explain static Hct / Hgb but increasing retics for a rider between morning and evening - what we saw with Ryder:

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Originally Posted by Merckx index View Post
However, when a rider transfuses for PE, there is no preceding withdrawal. As a result, HT increases and simultaneously, retics decrease--a sure fire way to trigger a passport positive. To avoid this, as I noted in my earlier post, riders a) transfuse saline, to reduce the HT, and b) take EPO, to raise retics.
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Last edited by Dear Wiggo; 11-04-12 at 21:51.
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