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Old 11-05-12, 01:01
acoggan acoggan is offline
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Originally Posted by V3R1T4S View Post
Yeah, sort of. The problem is how do you objectively measure the performance. Ferrari was using lactate readings and VAM. However, a lot of riding both dehydrates the rider (causing higher VAMs) and reduces lactate output (admittedly, for reasons I do not 100% understand, but Coggan brought up this issue in a thread of his on "Ferrari's Magic" or similar).

So you would *expect* to both have a higher VAM and a lower lactate reading for the same power output every time, assuming the rider didn't crack during the effort.

I would think just straight up wattage and w/kg is a repeatable and objective output to measure.

I am a scientist but not an exercise physiologist, so perhaps acoggan or krebs or someone else who is can fill in the gaps and point out errors in this reasoning.
1. The rate of glycogenolysis, and hence the rate of lactate production, is in part dependent upon muscle glycogen content.

2. I agree: power is power, and provides an integrative measure of all the physiological factors underpinning performance.
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Old 11-05-12, 01:39
Cyivel Cyivel is offline
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Well said JV brother.
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Old 11-05-12, 01:49
Ferminal Ferminal is offline
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Originally Posted by hrotha View Post
No, he said if he had drunk enough water he wouldn't have tested positive, but it wasn't an excuse (he didn't claim he didn't dope), just an explanation of why he didn't manage to beat the test that one time.
Oh yeh, I mean an excuse for failing the test, not an excuse to show he wasn't doping

It was like "oh I'm so cool and lazy I cbf passing the test".
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Old 11-05-12, 01:56
PACONi PACONi is offline
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JV, not wanting to side track the conversation, but what does Ryder think of this discussion?
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Old 11-05-12, 05:36
skidmark skidmark is offline
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Originally Posted by JV1973 View Post
Ive spoken to all my riders regards to their past. Not sure why you'd think otherwise?

Here's a story about Ramunas Navardauskas:
Awesome. This is what I've been curious about, how you can assess who's clean and what the intake procedure is. I know you were responding to MJM, but I also wasn't sure if you spoke to all your riders about their past, because I'd asked before and it didn't get responded to. Thanks for opening the coconut a bit more for monkeys like us. Although I am still curious how the procedure might be different for a more experienced rider who might have a 'history' rather than an U23 rider - same deal, testing and chatting? Is there a 'what did you do in the past?' discussion, or is it more of a 'you know what this team is about, and you may have done whatever you've done in the past, but you're welcome here as long as the past is in the past?' Or something else entirely?

I got another question - I was thinking about how internal testing was in vogue about 4 years ago with several teams at the highest level, and now it seems to have phased itself out. Just wondering what your thoughts were on whether that was a helpful addition in the continuum of measures in the anti-doping world, or just kind of an add-on that looked good from a PR perspective. Or somewhere in between.

Last edited by skidmark; 11-05-12 at 07:09.
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Old 11-05-12, 08:35
theyoungest theyoungest is offline
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Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
Was linked with Humanplasma although i dont know what came of that

Nothing came of it, AFAIK. But Matschiner more or less indicated earlier this year in the Volkskrant that one Dutch Rabobank rider was involved. The paper automatically assumed it was Boogerd, for some reason. So this is interesting new information.
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Old 11-05-12, 08:58
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mikkemus23 mikkemus23 is offline
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Originally Posted by JV1973 View Post
6 hours of hard racing would induce hypoxia, which would increase EPO production.... Guess what happens when EPO production is increased? More retics. And actually, I was originally referring to hypoxia from the day before and the TT. What you don't get is that it's not marketing spiel, it's that I do not know. I know that his retic count is very stable and a small increase from morning to afternoon is nothing unusual. That's why I've asked you to go test yourself.

I don't tell my team not to dope. I spend over $500,000 annually to make sure they don't. I set up a truth and reward policy to make sure there is clarity as to what is going on AND I allow any journalist any access they desire.

In addition Ive worked actively with WADA and USADA since 2004 to help improve their testing methods and execution and volunteered my team to try new testing methods.

The 1000 calorie thing is a genuine screw up. I went to Bermuda to go fishing, as I've done for many years. I did Tedx as a favor for my friend and I prepared a slide show. The 1000 calorie thing was just me doing the 15 watts over 6 hours math in my head wrong. I'm admitting I did it wrong. Is there something else?

there is no bump in Ryder's Hb. It falls as the 3 weeks progress. Is it linear? No. I have never witnessed a perfectly linear fall in Hb over 3 weeks. Ever.
Millar shows no plasma increase. the decrease in his performance is the best evidence of his failure to adapt to the stresses. I don't make these judgements in a test tube. they are made in context, judging performance and blood values.

What you're failing to see, is that this is not an area of science that has been exhaustively researched. It is, as Aschenden will tell you, more art than science. It's recognizing patterns from experience.

the statistically worst blood profile I have ever seen was from a rider that this forum constantly refers to as "clean"... Did he dope at the time of his profile blip? No, I doubt it, as his performance was sub par, not suspiciously over par. Context.

End of the day, I cannot convince you. So, I need to give up. There is nothing I can say, show or do that will alter your opinion. Since this is true, can we just not debate and come to the conclusion that our opinions will never be the same?

What you fundamentally underestimate is my earning power outside the world of cycling. It's not marketing spiel because I don't care enough about my position in cycling to be compromised by that crap. When I was a rider, yes, I allowed it to compromise me. That was a BIG mistake. But as one of my closest friends said to me "The biggest financial mistake you ever made in your life was being involved with cycling, as a rider or a manager"

evidence of me not caring? please see my quotes re UCI, re USADA, and actions over the last year. Not the actions of someone covering their ****. Maybe the actions of someone trying to get booted out of the sport!!

That is my best and final argument.

Great post
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Old 11-05-12, 09:06
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Zam_Olyas Zam_Olyas is offline
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Mr. Vaughters what do you have against Mr. Ashenden? I think you seem a little condescending towards him.

Last edited by Zam_Olyas; 11-05-12 at 09:39.
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Old 11-05-12, 09:13
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"Jeff" "Jeff" is offline
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That's really Jonathan Vaughters posting here ? Gotta give the man credit for that, when do you see that ?

I just read this topic. Whether you agree with him or not, I dont understand how some of internet hooligans act against him. Some probably never have ridden a bike. Surprised that man (JV) is still posting here.

Now I dont want to sound like JV's fanboy, so I have to say he was a pretty limited rider. Sorry Jon.

Still major props for coming here and if you see Jeff Bernard in next year's TDF, send him my regards from Holland.
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Old 11-05-12, 09:20
fat_boy_fat fat_boy_fat is offline
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Appreciation for JV still participating in the discussion, although the level for convincing critics (who I appreciate big time too!) is high around here – for a reason.

Just compare his style when confronted with aggressive questions to that Jens showed in the German TV piece of 14 Oct somebody shared here. Speaks for itself.
»Never, never, never …«
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