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  #2061  
Old 11-05-12, 14:57
GreggGermer GreggGermer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper View Post
nice informative post, much obliged.

Would have been nice to hear something similar from JV or Millar in reference to Wiggo 2009/12 and Hesjedal 2012.
Instead, JV and Millar somehow miraculously 'know for sure' that those results were obtained on paniagua. As GreggGermer points out, you by definition cannot vouch for that, yet JV and Millar somehow can.
I think I should slightly amend my comment:

I can vouch for two riders who rode for the cyclocross team I put together last year, Gabby Day and Craig Richey, during last year. As both raced for me, lived at my house and having spent numerous hours getting to know each rider I can, and would, go to bat against any forum weasel who tried to bring them down with doping accusations.

That said, if JV has access to the power data of his rider, blood profiles, and other information it is reasonable to develop an opinion on a riders cleanliness. You should be able to parse out a bad seed amongst your riders. The question then becomes do you trust JV's opinion and words, which I have a feeling for most in the Clinic would be a no.

I know Brailsford has said at the end of the season they would open up the data for Wiggo to anyone who wanted to see it, but has anyone taken him up on the offer?
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  #2062  
Old 11-05-12, 15:10
JV1973 JV1973 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper View Post
Very well, but JV proactively propagates that cycling is so much cleaner now (viz. since 2008), also on this forum. So either he has no suspicions regarding the likes of Contador, Valvi, Wiggins, Froome, Riis, Bruyneel, the Schlecks, etc., or he is simply not being very truthful.
I think I've addressed that for your highness above.
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  #2063  
Old 11-05-12, 15:15
JV1973 JV1973 is offline
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Originally Posted by hrotha View Post
We could talk about a hypothetical rider instead. Say, Adalberto Cantador.
Legally that solves it. Being quoted is still possible, although at legal jeopardy to the journalist.

Anyhow, I have no idea what rider you are referring to. There is a rider that I would opine, not more, that probably doped in his career. But when hiring any rider, the question I ask is not "did they dope?" its instead "can they win clean?".... The rider that I'm talking about probably fits into this category, despite past doping. But, since I've never tested them nor seen any test results of theirs, I cannot say this conclusively and it's just a guess.
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  #2064  
Old 11-05-12, 15:17
maltiv maltiv is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper View Post
Very well, but JV proactively propagates that cycling is so much cleaner now (viz. since 2008), also on this forum. So either he has no suspicions regarding the likes of Contador, Valvi, Wiggins, Froome, Riis, Bruyneel, the Schlecks, etc., or he is simply not being very truthful.
There's a deference between cleaner and fewer people doping. Cleaner can mean that roughly the same amount of riders are doping, but they have to dope a lot less due to better testing, which then again results in clean people (hopefully) being competitive.

If we're now at a level where clean riders can win GT's, then that's a huge improvement, regardless of whether the amount of dopers has decreased or not.
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  #2065  
Old 11-05-12, 15:32
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JimmyFingers JimmyFingers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper View Post
Very well, but JV proactively propagates that cycling is so much cleaner now (viz. since 2008), also on this forum. So either he has no suspicions regarding the likes of Contador, Valvi, Wiggins, Froome, Riis, Bruyneel, the Schlecks, etc., or he is simply not being very truthful.
While you can shout accusations about riders here based on supposition, hearsay, insinuation, character assassination and by shouting really, really loudly, and have people believe you, in the real, very litigious world if you are in a position of responsibility and you voice suspicions based on the above reasons then you tend to need a very good lawyer.

And there is a difference between lying and not saying anything
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  #2066  
Old 11-05-12, 15:41
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GJB123 GJB123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper View Post
Very well, but JV proactively propagates that cycling is so much cleaner now (viz. since 2008), also on this forum. So either he has no suspicions regarding the likes of Contador, Valvi, Wiggins, Froome, Riis, Bruyneel, the Schlecks, etc., or he is simply not being very truthful.
There is a distinct difference between not giving your opinion and lying or not being truthful. You do see that don't you?. Can you even begin to contemplate the sh!t storm of he came on a public forum stating that riders X, Y and Z doped? What's there to win for him by doing that? Do you actually think that will stop those riders from doping of they do? In the worse case scenario it will probably leave JV out of cycling. But perhaps that makes you happy?

We may not like the fact that cycling getting cleaner is a revolution in slow motion with setbacks every now and then , but I am certain it is the best we can hope for and personally have more confidence of it finally yielding better results the JV-style than the Brailsford-style or the Clinic cynics-style.
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  #2067  
Old 11-05-12, 15:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GJB123 View Post
We may not like the fact that cycling getting cleaner is a revolution in slow motion with setbacks every now and then , but I am certain it is the best we can hope for and personally have more confidence of it finally yielding better results the JV-style than the Brailsford-style or the Clinic cynics-style.
moi aussi.
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  #2068  
Old 11-05-12, 15:58
theyoungest theyoungest is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hrotha View Post
We could talk about a hypothetical rider instead. Say, Adalberto Cantador.
Is this a Godwin's law thing?
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  #2069  
Old 11-05-12, 17:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JV1973 View Post
When I say "i don't know" it means "I don't know"... It does not mean I don't have a private opinion.
why didn't you just say "I don't know" then

Quote:
Originally Posted by JV1973 View Post

And this applies to contract talks with Contador... We never got to the point of the talks that i saw his blood values. So, I can't say one way or the other on the guy. I'd be happy to give you my opinion on this, if you want to come over for dinner. But not here. I'm not going to publicly judge someone who I have never even seen their blood profile or medical records.

But I have my opinion. just not for here.

I only give my opinion on items/riders that I have hard facts about.
I think there are enough hard facts out there about Alberto Contador for us - and you! - to say "he doped"! He only just returned from a doping ban for crying out loud
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  #2070  
Old 11-05-12, 17:16
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Hi JV.

You say that one of the proofs that cycling is cleaner now than in the past, is that you can win a GT clean.

For how long has that been the case?
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Take Bradley Wiggins for example, and his claim that he thought Lance Armstrong was clean up until the reasoned decision. I do have a little sympathy for him. While he's not particularly bright or articulate, if you read between his curse words it's clear that he has insecurities resulting from the fact that despite all the measures he took to win the Tour he wasn't even the strongest rider.
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