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  #2081  
Old 11-05-12, 18:32
JV1973 JV1973 is offline
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btw - vo2 max is not a great indicator of ability. We don't test for it. We use a test that steps up every 10 minutes, from power level to power level. You never reach vo2 max with such long/fatiguing intervals. We measure v02 , but it never gets to max before the rider fails. This test is, however, a great indicator of on road performance, because it lasts an hour and a half and is very tough the whole time. The guys hate it.

This type of testing is more aligned with how your body adapts to and tolerates acidity. Which is far more interesting than v02 max.
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  #2082  
Old 11-05-12, 18:35
JV1973 JV1973 is offline
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Originally Posted by Zam_Olyas View Post
Mr. Vaughters what do you have against Mr. Ashenden? I think you seem a little condescending towards him.

No, actually I like Michael quite a bit. We just emailed a bit a few days ago. What I have disdain for is him being used to prove anything and everything on this forum by people who've never spoken to him.

His thoughts are very good and logical. I have much respect for him.
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  #2083  
Old 11-05-12, 18:36
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Galic Ho Galic Ho is offline
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Originally Posted by maltiv View Post
Can't be Hushovd, he says the rider was performing sub-par at the time, which doesn't sound like Hushovd either before he joined Garmin (when he became WC) or in his year at Garmin. He's also not constantly referred to as clean in the clinic at least.

Must be Moncoutie really, I guess JV saw his profile because he thought of signing him? And his point isn't that said rider was doped, but that blood levels can vary even (or particularly) for clean riders, if he for example were dehydrated during the test. Also, clean riders don't manipulate their blood, so perhaps their numbers to some degree can have more variance than that of a doped rider on a great program...
Sastre had the best run in GT's I've seen in a long time. From 2008 to mid 2009. Then he hit the proverbial brick wall at the 2009 Tour and went from wonderful to lackluster, almost instantly and never regained the form.
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  #2084  
Old 11-05-12, 18:39
martinvickers martinvickers is offline
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Originally Posted by GJB123 View Post
There is a distinct difference between not giving your opinion and lying or not being truthful. You do see that don't you?. Can you even begin to contemplate the sh!t storm of he came on a public forum stating that riders X, Y and Z doped? What's there to win for him by doing that? Do you actually think that will stop those riders from doping of they do? In the worse case scenario it will probably leave JV out of cycling. But perhaps that makes you happy?

We may not like the fact that cycling getting cleaner is a revolution in slow motion with setbacks every now and then , but I am certain it is the best we can hope for and personally have more confidence of it finally yielding better results the JV-style than the Brailsford-style or the Clinic cynics-style.
If I can suggest an analogy.

Some people just like creative destruction - they want to go mining with explosives, blow the whole thing to kingdom come. and that's fine, and understandable. We live our lives in the moment.

But the truly awesome holes in the ground, the great trenches and canyons of the world, were not made with explosives, but with water drops.

And much patience.

LA coming down feels like a firework - in reality, it's 15 years of attrition.

So much more so for organisational and cultural change.

Last edited by martinvickers; 11-05-12 at 18:47.
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  #2085  
Old 11-05-12, 18:41
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hrotha hrotha is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JV1973 View Post
No, actually I like Michael quite a bit. We just emailed a bit a few days ago. What I have disdain for is him being used to prove anything and everything on this forum by people who've never spoken to him.

His thoughts are very good and logical. I have much respect for him.
Problem is, we don't have many other independent reference points. We have Ashenden, and then we have... the Captain, I guess?. There's also you, but obviously you're an interested party so we have to be more sceptical about what you say.

Perhaps if the new antidoping system that will hopefully emerge from the UCI's downfall allowed their hematologists to speak freely, and more profiles were made public, we'd have other expert opinions to rely on, and divergent analysis. Until then, you can pretty much treat every mention of "Ashenden" as a placeholder for "independent, uncompromised, believable external expert".
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  #2086  
Old 11-05-12, 18:42
skidmark skidmark is offline
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Okay, next question - when can you have the clinic over for dinner?
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  #2087  
Old 11-05-12, 18:44
ScienceIsCool ScienceIsCool is offline
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Mr. Vaughters, I have a question. Do you feel that social media (such as a forum like this one) is an effective tool in promoting a viewpoint and shpaing public perception?

The reason I ask is that there is a pattern to your posting style. Long absence, followed by a flurry of engagement. This is in contrast to a lot of posters who have a more consistent profile. Also, I have noticed that on a few occasions, your presence is preceded by some noteworthy cycling news.

I appreciate your presence here very much, and I suspect that the majority of posters here do too. I just wonder why you do it. I guess it could be for the same reasons any of us post here.

John Swanson
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  #2088  
Old 11-05-12, 18:45
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Pentacycle Pentacycle is offline
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Originally Posted by Galic Ho View Post
Sastre had the best run in GT's I've seen in a long time. From 2008 to mid 2009. Then he hit the proverbial brick wall at the 2009 Tour and went from wonderful to lackluster, almost instantly and never regained the form.
2009 Tour: exhausted due to riding the Giro
2010 Giro: crashed in 1st week, but too injured to get to the podium despite that breakaway
2010 Tour and Vuelta: Slight recovery, but still too much suffering from the Giro and showing signs of getting older(35)
2011: a year too much, age caught up with him.

What's not logical about that? The reason for his bad performances after 2009 were probably due to his decreased recovery capabilities, that's why he could put less training in his GT preparation. Guys like VdV, Basso and Menchov are having the same trouble imo.
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Last edited by Pentacycle; 11-05-12 at 18:49.
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  #2089  
Old 11-05-12, 18:47
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Mrs John Murphy Mrs John Murphy is offline
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Originally Posted by JV1973 View Post
BINGO!!! Thank you.

It's not that I wouldn't answer these questions if you came over for dinner. But I'm not touching them on a public forum. You guys don't get quoted from what you say on a forum in mainstream media. I do.
Unless I'm prepared to legally and publicly defend my position that "I think xyz doped" then I say nothing. I don't have hard evidence and I'm not one to go accusing people without hard evidence. That is just as immoral as doping.

When I say "i don't know" it means "I don't know"... It does not mean I don't have a private opinion.

And this applies to contract talks with Contador... We never got to the point of the talks that i saw his blood values. So, I can't say one way or the other on the guy. I'd be happy to give you my opinion on this, if you want to come over for dinner. But not here. I'm not going to publicly judge someone who I have never even seen their blood profile or medical records.

But I have my opinion. just not for here.

I only give my opinion on items/riders that I have hard facts about.

In the end, what maybe you guys don't get, I don't care as much as you might think about if rider xyz doped or not. I don't claim the sport is totally clean, what i claim is that clean riders are winning more than at any other point in cycling's history. That's all.
Fair enough but then rather than making statements such as 'cycling is cleaner' then the true answer is 'I don't know enough to say that cycling is cleaner'.

'Cycling is cleaner' is essentially a meaningless, PR statement, advertising that promises 'new and improved'.

It is hard to say 'Ricco is hardcore and unreformed - while others had agreed a truce', when we sit and watch the Vuelta and appear to have entered into a new phase of the doping arms race.

I think the other problem is that your positioning yourself as radical, runs into problems because you are talking to the true radicals in the clinic, while you maybe radical for a reactionary like McQuaid, to many here you appear to be a sheep in wolf's clothing. Your conservatism and reluctance to be anything other than reactive (other than the terrible breakaway league idea) when it comes to breaking omerta and really challenging the ancien regime in cycling is understandably frustrating, and hence why some see your actions as PR.

We'd like you to throw bombs but you keep wanting to sit down and sing Kumbayah with the omertists and dopers.
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Last edited by Mrs John Murphy; 11-05-12 at 18:51.
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  #2090  
Old 11-05-12, 18:50
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Froome19 Froome19 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hrotha View Post
Problem is, we don't have many other independent reference points. We have Ashenden, and then we have... the Captain, I guess?. There's also you, but obviously you're an interested party so we have to be more sceptical about what you say.

Perhaps if the new antidoping system that will hopefully emerge from the UCI's downfall allowed their hematologists to speak freely, and more profiles were made public, we'd have other expert opinions to rely on, and divergent analysis. Until then, you can pretty much treat every mention of "Ashenden" as a placeholder for "independent, uncompromised, believable external expert".
Personally I see Ashenden as biased as JV. It is his job to produce articles that are supposed to be anti-doping so he is not exactly going to go out and say that doping is significantly reduced in the sport, even if that was his opinion.
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