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  #2121  
Old 11-05-12, 21:03
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Galic Ho Galic Ho is offline
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Originally Posted by JV1973 View Post
btw - vo2 max is not a great indicator of ability. We don't test for it. We use a test that steps up every 10 minutes, from power level to power level. You never reach vo2 max with such long/fatiguing intervals. We measure v02 , but it never gets to max before the rider fails. This test is, however, a great indicator of on road performance, because it lasts an hour and a half and is very tough the whole time. The guys hate it.

This type of testing is more aligned with how your body adapts to and tolerates acidity. Which is far more interesting than v02 max.
Sounds like Tabata intervals on a bike. Sounds like fun. No really. It's be nice to know one's own personal attributes. See that is why I mentioned transparency. If the public had this explained to them, well it'd go a long way to debuffing all the confusion about power outputs, lactate threshold, oxygen uptake, fatigue and VO2 in general. As it is people have to fill in the blanks and some people clearly have a better framework for this base knowledge and could impart a lot of good.

But there lies the problem? Do this for your team and everyone knows what you're doing don't they? They can formulate how to beat you...even more so if you're clean.
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  #2122  
Old 11-05-12, 21:07
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Galic Ho Galic Ho is offline
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Originally Posted by hrotha View Post
Problem is, we don't have many other independent reference points. We have Ashenden, and then we have... the Captain, I guess?. There's also you, but obviously you're an interested party so we have to be more sceptical about what you say.

Perhaps if the new antidoping system that will hopefully emerge from the UCI's downfall allowed their hematologists to speak freely, and more profiles were made public, we'd have other expert opinions to rely on, and divergent analysis. Until then, you can pretty much treat every mention of "Ashenden" as a placeholder for "independent, uncompromised, believable external expert".
That is the point though with using Ashenden's viewpoints. Hearing him speak or write, his language is succinct, fluent and straight to the point. It's very hard to argue against. Very hard so convincing is he in his assertions.

He's also one of the few people going into depth about how doping works, what happens physiologically and has no issue with stating such and such doped because of A, B and C. Everything that should be happening, Ashenden is ahead of the norm in that regard. He is doing a good job educating people on the points I mentioned which is desperately needed. Placing faith in the UCI and dopers is just beyond daft.
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  #2123  
Old 11-05-12, 21:09
skidmark skidmark is offline
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Originally Posted by JV1973 View Post
Oh, I do owe you an answer:

Christian VDV was physiologically the best rider on Postal. You don't seem to understand my perspective on physiology. A high vo2 max does not make a great rider. I had a very high vo2. Higher than Bernard Hinaults, almost certainly. He was great, I was mediocre. Why? because while in a limited 30 minute laboratory test, i could reach very high points of shifting oxygen. He could do 95% of that for 6 hours on the road. I was a car with very big engine with a small gas tank and a driver with bad depth perception.

VDV proved more than once he had the best physiology. The best example is Jan camp 1999. We did a test up a big hill. VDV was the best, by far, with still low lactate. But the results got moved around a bit, so Lance wouldn't feel insecure. Read about it. it's a public story. Think hincapie may have told it.

That's my opinion. which is limited to 1999 and 1998. Floyd also had very good physiology, clean, as evidenced by his 3rd in tour d'lavenir, long before he doped.
Pretty sure I just read it in Tyler's book, too.

Also, not a question, but amongst all the discussion of 'how radical can you afford to be without burning too many bridges in the sport', I remembered that one of my favourite moments of the 2010 season was sometime in the early season when there was an interview with you about the 2009 Tour when you made an off-the-cuff remark about Astana 'soft-pedalling for Lance'. I mean, a shot between the eyes towards someone who hates being belittled more than anything. You might be a bit handcuffed with how much you can speculate in public, but that was one was pretty satisfying to read.
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  #2124  
Old 11-05-12, 21:14
martinvickers martinvickers is offline
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Originally Posted by Mrs John Murphy View Post
There are a whole raft of dopers who got pinged and went straight back to doping.

Some got caught, others weren't.

Is a DIY programme really more hardcore than a team organized, professionally run programme involving doctors, couriers, complex logistic operations and subterfuge?

Ricco is just an easy target. He's no different to a large chunk of the pro-peloton. Some are DIY, some are organized and some are super-organized.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree to an extent. For all our 'suspicions' about other members of the peleton, there can be no doubt that Ricco doped; and then, being caught, doped again, in a particularly insane way.

I think that probably deserves censure.

it seems very odd to think of him as a 'victim' of other, cleverer dopers. The guy cheated. Repeatedly. In unsafe ways. So 1. he's stupid, 2. he's bent, and 3. he's a repeat offender. Regardless of what others do, that's what he is, and he has to go.

Now, just because I say he's hardcore doesn't mean others can't be too - it's a large house with many rooms - clearly Armstrong was Hardcore, Hamilton was Hardcore, Ullrich too - but as to those in the peleton today - what do we actually know, as opposed to what we think we know, or think we have deduced?

You say he's 'no worse' than others in the peleton - who? And this is the important bit, what EVIDENCE do you have of this - not hunches, not doubts, not dislikes - Evidence - because evidence on Ricco, Armstrong, Hamilton etc we have. in spades.
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  #2125  
Old 11-05-12, 21:17
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Galic Ho Galic Ho is offline
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Again with the ad hominem attacks...

Considering that my presence here predates yours and the search function will only call up someone's last ~500 posts, I'd say that you have no idea what was contained in my first posts.
I've long been aware that though you are not posting, you are reading the forum. Your name gets mentioned, you almost always respond that day, or the day after at latest. I was reading this forum when it first began...was it March 2009? I was one of the lurkers who decided to post, learn and contribute. I didn't see the point in not posting and the SBS run cycling central site was, well it still is a joke regarding cycling's dirty past and hidden secrets. So I made an account in August 2009. But I'd been reading for some time. The post I was referring to may not have been your first, but it was definitely the first post of yours I read. And you mentioned it more than once. I hear someone state their own worth again and again...instinct tells me they're bragging.

BTW who was it whose original account was named after Bruyneel's wife? Was it thehog or Race Radio? Anyone know?

Yes, the ad hominen attack is unfair. My apologies. At least you qualified your data later on in the power thread and provided a means for the forum to gauge and understand that of others. You have caught on to why I do this? You do the same to others...it's only fair. But I'll stop. I'll just read your posts and let you go on with whatever it is you're saying.

And no, I don't read the forum every day. I've been gone at times for months on end.
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  #2126  
Old 11-05-12, 21:24
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Mrs John Murphy Mrs John Murphy is offline
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He is a 'victim' in the sense that everyone piles into Ricco. The same with Rasmussen. He is the obvious whipping boy and an easy target - he is annoying, a doper and very stupid.

However, there are lots of annoying, doped and stupid members of the peloton. The only difference is they haven't been caught.

It is very easy to call out Ricco. Why not call out someone who is richer, more powerful and smarter, but also a doper/enabler. Why not call out Riis, or Brailsford, or Contador?

When Ricco got popped, Frodo Cavendish said that he hoped that Ricco was raped in jail, Millar jumped on the bandwagon. And yet, when it comes to Contador for example, Millar takes exactly the opposite approach.

Ricco shouldn't be in the sport but then 99.99% of those involved in the sport shouldn't be involved in the sport either. Singling out Ricco and ignoring other equally egregious dopers seems a little unfair on Ricco.
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  #2127  
Old 11-05-12, 21:28
acoggan acoggan is offline
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Originally Posted by Galic Ho View Post
The post I was referring to may not have been your first, but it was definitely the first post of yours I read.
To what post are you referring?
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  #2128  
Old 11-05-12, 21:38
RHRH19861986 RHRH19861986 is offline
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The thing about JV is, in my opinion: He, in fact, is a good, likeable person. I think if cycling was full of team managers like him, the doping issue would be kicked out of the sport.

Unfortunately, the sport is full of Riisī, Unzues, Amadios, Ekimovs, Lelangues, Leveveres, van Schuerens, etc., all people who know cycling as a sport where taking PEDs is equal to training, proper dieting and sleeping. These people also would certainly prefer a clean sport, but donīt think for a second that it will ever be clean, so they donīt see the need to get it clean, because Riis doesnīt trust Liquigas, Liquigas doesnīt trust Movistar, Movistar doesnīt trust Garmin, and so on.

JV, Iīm sure of that, dreams more of a clean sport than many others do. But, knowing he runs a business, and does this in a sport where you just take PEDs, he canīt choose what his opponents do. Itīs good to have people like JV around, but they wonīt change the sport.

JV himself has discovered by his own body which massive effects PEDs have. In a clean peloton, his men would lead the business. Since the peloton isnīt clean, his men are just forced to do the same what most of the others do. Otherwise, Garmin and Sharp and many of their sponsors quit rather sooner than later, and JV is without a World Tour team.

My message to him: Keep the good work up, speak out loud, youīre good for the sport.

Some things, though, are ashaming. Not many, but they exist. Telling people that Hesjadal has won the Giro on bread and water, for example, is just ridiculous. I mean, see whom he has beaten: Zapatero, Rodriguez, Basso, Kreuziger, and so on. On bread and water? Never ever!! Maybe no EPO, no HGH, no cortisone, no Testogel, but certainly more than two blood bags.

Sure, he canīt say, "Hesjedal, I want you to become 10th in Giro, please not better than this", and Iīm sure Prentice Steffen, another person who really is great for the sport and its image, hasnīt done the transfusions, but winning the Giro against people of whom we know what theyīre on is probably not a good sign for a team which I generally consider to be one of the cleanest.
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  #2129  
Old 11-05-12, 21:54
fatandfast fatandfast is offline
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Originally Posted by Mrs John Murphy View Post
He is a 'victim' in the sense that everyone piles into Ricco. The same with Rasmussen. He is the obvious whipping boy and an easy target - he is annoying, a doper and very stupid.

However, there are lots of annoying, doped and stupid members of the peloton. The only difference is they haven't been caught.

It is very easy to call out Ricco. Why not call out someone who is richer, more powerful and smarter, but also a doper/enabler. Why not call out Riis, or Brailsford, or Contador?

When Ricco got popped, Frodo Cavendish said that he hoped that Ricco was raped in jail, Millar jumped on the bandwagon. And yet, when it comes to Contador for example, Millar takes exactly the opposite approach.

Ricco shouldn't be in the sport but then 99.99% of those involved in the sport shouldn't be involved in the sport either. Singling out Ricco and ignoring other equally egregious dopers seems a little unfair on Ricco.
I think you got it.It's all the pre and post dope behavior that people focus on. He is a bad,unlikable doper vs he is a really handsome,likable doper and so well spoken. He wasn't arrogant before getting caught so he is different.
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  #2130  
Old 11-05-12, 22:00
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Mr. Vaughters, I have a question. Do you feel that social media (such as a forum like this one) is an effective tool in promoting a viewpoint and shpaing public perception?

The reason I ask is that there is a pattern to your posting style. Long absence, followed by a flurry of engagement. This is in contrast to a lot of posters who have a more consistent profile. Also, I have noticed that on a few occasions, your presence is preceded by some noteworthy cycling news.
FYI: http://www.irishpeloton.com/2011/03/...ers-pr-battle/
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