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  #531  
Old 11-05-12, 19:12
Dutchsmurf Dutchsmurf is offline
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Originally Posted by Afrank View Post
What pistolera said. There is no proof of any wrong doing in any of those cases. Yet there is in the Vino case. Paying someone to lose a race like the emails indicate is not something that we should turn a blind eye towards. When there is proof of it then something should be done about it. Making the sport cleaner should be the top priority, but I don't see why we shouldn't try to stop riders from buying races as well. I see buying a race as just another form of doping.
Keyword here is "indicate". If you are going to take action because something "indicates" paying for a win, all my other examples come into play too. There is no proof, just an indication. Uran's strange move is just as much indication to me as Kolobnev's email.
In the history of cycling there have been tons of examples of people losing on purpose. It never was a problem before. Why is it suddenly a problem now? And if it is a problem, where do you draw the line? Only if money is involved? Is handing you the win today so you help me tomorrow okay or not? What about dividing the prices, I mean that is matchfixing too. I take yellow, you take the stage. I take the mountain points, you take the sprints for green. You are a good friend, so I make you win today. I was a bit unsportive yesterday, so you can take the stage today. I have to keep my teammate happy, so I will let him win the sprint.
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  #532  
Old 11-05-12, 19:22
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El Pistolero El Pistolero is offline
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He paid someone that wasn't his team-mate to lose on purpose. What's so hard to get about that? The proof are the e-mails and the money transactions.
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horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato
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Goss will woop boonens candy ass in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
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  #533  
Old 11-05-12, 19:46
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Afrank Afrank is offline
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Originally Posted by Dutchsmurf View Post
Keyword here is "indicate". If you are going to take action because something "indicates" paying for a win, all my other examples come into play too. There is no proof, just an indication. Uran's strange move is just as much indication to me as Kolobnev's email.
In the history of cycling there have been tons of examples of people losing on purpose. It never was a problem before. Why is it suddenly a problem now? And if it is a problem, where do you draw the line? Only if money is involved? Is handing you the win today so you help me tomorrow okay or not? What about dividing the prices, I mean that is matchfixing too. I take yellow, you take the stage. I take the mountain points, you take the sprints for green. You are a good friend, so I make you win today. I was a bit unsportive yesterday, so you can take the stage today. I have to keep my teammate happy, so I will let him win the sprint.
The bank transactions prove that money did exchange hands, and the words in the emails "indicate" that the money is likely to have been for Kolobnev to purposefully lose the race. And the emails are a much larger indication of wrongdoing then looking the wrong way in a sprint, looking the wrong way in a sprint is a mistake. It doesn't prove anything.

There is nothing wrong with the examples you described because they are part of the strategy's of cycling. But paying a guy to lose a race is in no way a strategy. And it gives the impression that as long as you can hang with the top guys at the front of the race and have enough money, you can just pay them for the win. No matter what you say it is a form of cheating, because just like doping it is giving one rider a unfair advantage. I personally want to see both riders both going for the win, I want to see a fair race. And if one rider can pay the other for the victory, then it is not a fair race at all.

Edit: Looks like a few more details from the emails have emerged, sites are now reporting this line in addition to others in Kolobnev's email.
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If it had been someone else in your place there, I would have gone for the win, glory and bonus

Last edited by Afrank; 11-05-12 at 20:05.
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  #534  
Old 11-05-12, 19:59
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Originally Posted by Dutchsmurf View Post
There is no proof, just an indication. Uran's strange move is just as much indication to me as Kolobnev's email.
Oh wait, didn't Uran move this year to Monaco?
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  #535  
Old 11-05-12, 20:51
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Well done UCI!

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-...-liege-victory
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  #536  
Old 11-05-12, 21:02
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Originally Posted by Descender View Post
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  #537  
Old 11-05-12, 21:04
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Vinokourov, when asked following his Liège win about its significance after his doping ban, refused to discuss details of his doping past, telling reporters, "It’s proof you can win without doping."
http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/...e-liege_264011

Yeah Vino, but it's also a proof that you cheat no matter what.
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  #538  
Old 11-05-12, 22:02
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That's not what he told reporters. They misheard his words. I was there, and what he said was "it's proof that you can cheat without doping".
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  #539  
Old 11-05-12, 22:09
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"If Vinokourov and Kolobnev were to be proven guilty the license commission would re-evaluate the world tour licenses of the Astana and Katusha teams."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...&dlvrit=255506
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  #540  
Old 11-06-12, 08:08
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Ryo Hazuki Ryo Hazuki is offline
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Originally Posted by Afrank View Post
Let's not resort to facepalms and insults, you didn't make that clear in your last post. A deal like the one you describe does make sense, the only problem is the emails don't really read like this was the deal. Vino saying you did the right thing for example sounds like it was more a deal to buy the race then a compensation for Kolobnevs work deal. If these kind of things happen as much as you say then I don't know why Vino would have to reassure him that he did the right thing.



When did I say anything about Uran? As far as I know there isn't any proof that Vino payed Uran. Or did you just quote the wrong post?
about uran I was telling in general and the emails proove nothing,other than that vino paid kolobnev. I hope they aren't checking any other riders bank accounts because it happens all the time. situations far worse like boogerd being allowed to win the nationals from langeveld in return of a pro contract for him with rabo. I never hear anything about that, that was blatant
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