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  #331  
Old 11-05-12, 17:28
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thirteen thirteen is offline
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Originally Posted by DirtyWorks View Post
Was it another post taken down in haste? I get a 404 error. Those McQaids can't keep their traps shut! This should be fun!
it's still there...
Andrew McQuaid ‏@andrewmcquaid
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Another extremely interesting article, this time on big firms thinking cycling has a future http://www.sportspromedia.com/sports..._for_flanders/
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  #332  
Old 11-05-12, 17:33
runninboy runninboy is offline
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If some of you still think blood doping was possible in a gran tour in the summer in the 1980's here is a little more info from a google search on proper blood storage
"When you store human blood and its components, there's little or no room for error. Red cells and whole blood, for instance, must be maintained strictly within the range of 2.0 to 6.0 degrees Celsius or 35.6 F to 42.8 F
Blood must be kept within 2 to 6C(35.6 F to 42.8 F,) in order to be safe and effective for transfusion. If exposed to temperatures greater than 6C, blood's ability to carry oxygen is greatly reduced and the probability of bacterial contamination is heightened. Furthermore, exposure to freezing temperatures will render blood useless and the transfusion of such blood could be fatal. For these reasons, the proper storage and transport of blood within the cold chain is essential. Standards for refrigerators, cold boxes and temperature monitoring equipment for use in the blood cold chain are key..."

Now if anyone wishes to continue this ridiculous premise i suggest you think about the logistics involved, what you know and what you think might even be a plausible scenario of transportation and storage. There is a reason why medical grade refrigerators are used for blood storage. Small temperature fluctuations can be fatal. You cannot just pack blood in ice or ice packs and throw it in a sytrofoam cooler(fyi modern gel ice packs are used for a reason, they give a more consistent temperature. of course that did not exist during the period in question)
So please before just saying "it was possible" lay out for us HOW it was possible. Keeping in mind that the days when the blood would be most needed would be in the Alpine stages. The most remote areas requiring the longest transport times and with the most primitive hotels and fewest creature comforts in the whole tour. Then allow us to poke huge holes in your theories.

It seems ridiculous to me that people who are upset at the fraud Lance perpetrated on the cycling world continue to lash out , trying to bring others down to Lances level. No professional riders of Lemonds era have leveled accusations at him. The only people who do are restricted to posters on message boards. However plenty of Lemonds contemporaries have stepped forward to vouch for the legitimacy of his accomplishments, including Paul Kimmage who went out of his way to single out Lemond as the one clean rider beyond reproach. And we have his record of excellence from a young age. Junior world champ Senior world champ. And the physiological numbers to back up such performances( highest V02Max up to that time)
All that points to Gregs legitimacy. And still ex fan boys grasp for straws that somehow showing that it might be possible for Greg to be dirty will help them feel better about themselves. They have nothing beyond he was too good to be clean. In case you missed it i posted earlier about a certain miler in high school with a best time of 5minutes 24 seconds who a year and a half later became the first high schooler to break 4 minutes in the mile and only the 13th american to do so. Numbers 10 11 12 did it in the same race that Ryun did.He did this within a decade of Roger Bannister being the first to accomplish the feat. There is no doubt that Ryun was clean and his amazing result was purely from hard work. And yet it took 36 years to break his high school record and plenty of those that tried & failed had access to better training , PED's, and today they run on fast artificial tracks versus the dirt tracks of the 60's.
Being the best is not proof of cheating ask yourselves why you try so hard to argue the point.
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  #333  
Old 11-05-12, 19:09
D-Queued D-Queued is offline
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Originally Posted by runninboy View Post
...
So please before just saying "it was possible" lay out for us HOW it was possible. Keeping in mind that the days when the blood would be most needed would be in the Alpine stages. The most remote areas requiring the longest transport times and with the most primitive hotels and fewest creature comforts in the whole tour. Then allow us to poke huge holes in your theories.

...

Being the best is not proof of cheating ask yourselves why you try so hard to argue the point.
Pre-empting the fanboys, let me predict the response:

It is easy. You take the blood, see, and some kind of a hose, see, and a needle, see, and you hook it all up and poke the guy.

As simply stupid as that is, if they even get things in that order, it would be impressive.

*In the mid '80s, the standard for how to store frozen RBC:

http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs...ournalCode=med

(reference is a 1985 paper from Mass General, arguably the finest hospital in the world)

Frozen blood cells typically are stored at -85 C in frozen freezers, in the vapor over liquid nitrogen, or in liquid nitrogen itself (-196 C).

FWIW, Liquid Nitrogen access/handling is a controlled process.

Dave.
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  #334  
Old 11-05-12, 19:58
the delgados the delgados is offline
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@runninboy

I feel I have a reasonable grasp on the history of doping in cycling.
Arguing that top riders in any era were doped is not hard, believe me.
Funny how folks are jumping all over Millar for claiming that Sky are clean.
Consensus seems to be that he has no idea because he's not part of the team. I think that's a fair point.
Why is anyone wrong for suggesting the same about Kimmage? He never rode with Lemond. They weren't chums. How does he know for sure that Lemond was clean?
I don't have Rough Ride in front of me, but I remember more than one passage that would make one wonder if Lemond was indeed clean.
Read the chapter consisting of his Tour diaries. In it, he says he can't believe Lemond won a time trial stage after being dropped by the author in the Giro three weeks before.
Also, read the last chapter, where he expresess concern about revealing the seedy culture of cycling. I think it's called "Spitting in the Soup."
Totally paraphrasing here, but he said he couldn't get into the battle between Lemond and Fignon in the 89 Tour. All he saw were dilated pupils and track marks. He wasn't referring to them specifically, but after reading his book, forgive me if I tend to doubt the authenticity of any Tour winner.
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  #335  
Old 11-05-12, 20:08
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Netserk Netserk is offline
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Landis didn't seem to have much trouble with it (from his interview with Kimmage). He just used 'ice water' IIRC.
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Originally Posted by Floyd Landis
Take Bradley Wiggins for example, and his claim that he thought Lance Armstrong was clean up until the reasoned decision. I do have a little sympathy for him. While he's not particularly bright or articulate, if you read between his curse words it's clear that he has insecurities resulting from the fact that despite all the measures he took to win the Tour he wasn't even the strongest rider.
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  #336  
Old 11-06-12, 01:10
petethedrummer petethedrummer is offline
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Originally Posted by runninboy View Post
including Paul Kimmage who went out of his way to single out Lemond as the one clean rider beyond reproach.
I think what he has said about Lemond is that he is prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

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But I cant name a Tour de France winner going back to well, Ive got be careful here or Ill get myself in trouble. I know one that Im prepared to give the benefit of the doubt to.
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/...l-kimmage.html
He doesn't name Lemond in that interview, but I think he wrote something very similar for the Sunday Times around the time and said it was Lemond.

It could be in this article:
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/...icle107067.ece
or this one
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/...icle102553.ece

It may not be either but I don't have a subscription to check.
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  #337  
Old 11-06-12, 04:47
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86TDFWinner 86TDFWinner is offline
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Originally Posted by the delgados View Post
@runninboy

I feel I have a reasonable grasp on the history of doping in cycling.
Arguing that top riders in any era were doped is not hard, believe me.
Funny how folks are jumping all over Millar for claiming that Sky are clean.
Consensus seems to be that he has no idea because he's not part of the team. I think that's a fair point.
Why is anyone wrong for suggesting the same about Kimmage? He never rode with Lemond. They weren't chums. How does he know for sure that Lemond was clean?
I don't have Rough Ride in front of me, but I remember more than one passage that would make one wonder if Lemond was indeed clean.
Read the chapter consisting of his Tour diaries. In it, he says he can't believe Lemond won a time trial stage after being dropped by the author in the Giro three weeks before.
Also, read the last chapter, where he expresess concern about revealing the seedy culture of cycling. I think it's called "Spitting in the Soup."
Totally paraphrasing here, but he said he couldn't get into the battle between Lemond and Fignon in the 89 Tour. All he saw were dilated pupils and track marks. He wasn't referring to them specifically, but after reading his book, forgive me if I tend to doubt the authenticity of any Tour winner.

NO, YOU post these said chapters/info, as YOU'RE STILL on the "Lemond doped too" schtick. Why haven't you posted this info before, when so many have asked for it to be posted? Is it because it doesn't exist and you continue to make things up as you go along, to fit your agenda? please post said info here. WE don't need to "go back and read" anything, we're not trying to prove anything, YOU are, that's how this game works.
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"According to Mrs LeMond, Armstrong said: "There's no way you could have won your Tour de Frances without EPO." And Greg got very angry and said, "Listen, I won my - I was third in 1984, I was second in 1985, I won in 1986. This type of drug did not exist.The difference between you and me is that I have a 95 VO2 max and you have an 82, and you're - you don't - basically you don't know what you're talking about."(Proving Wonderboy is a clueless, lying POS)
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  #338  
Old 11-06-12, 05:25
the delgados the delgados is offline
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Originally Posted by 86TDFWinner View Post
NO, YOU post these said chapters/info, as YOU'RE STILL on the "Lemond doped too" schtick. Why haven't you posted this info before, when so many have asked for it to be posted? Is it because it doesn't exist and you continue to make things up as you go along, to fit your agenda? please post said info here. WE don't need to "go back and read" anything, we're not trying to prove anything, YOU are, that's how this game works.
I can assure you I don't have an agenda.
I'm not on a "Lemond doped schtick." I've already said that I'm not an authority on the subject. I'm merely an interested observer of the sport.
And based on what I've read--both past and present--it's going to take to convince me that Tour winners are clean.
P.S. What "info" are you talking about? I'm merely stating an opinion based on passages from a book I read. I have not made anything up.
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  #339  
Old 11-06-12, 05:38
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86TDFWinner 86TDFWinner is offline
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Originally Posted by the delgados View Post
I can assure you I don't have an agenda.
I'm not on a "Lemond doped schtick." I've already said that I'm not an authority on the subject. I'm merely an interested observer of the sport.
And based on what I've read--both past and present--it's going to take to convince me that Tour winners are clean.
P.S. What "info" are you talking about? I'm merely stating an opinion based on passages from a book I read. I have not made anything up.
, You asked for someone to "go back and read some chapters in some book" What's the name of said book? Now you're mentioning some "passages in a book you've read".......what book was it that you read the supposed passages from? Who wrote the book? what kind of evidence do they give that suggests "everyone was doping"? Please explain.

As for your last post above, you say "everything I've read", again where is this supposed "everything you've read" See, you're making stuff up again as you go along. Please post the said "everything you've read" stuff that suggests "no one was clean", that you keep talking about, please post it here. It must be CREDIBLE info too, not something you've heard, or your dog told you.

I don't know how much simpler I can make the request, please give us the name of the book you supposedly got the info from, and also, please post said passages from said unnamed book. Thank you.
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"According to Mrs LeMond, Armstrong said: "There's no way you could have won your Tour de Frances without EPO." And Greg got very angry and said, "Listen, I won my - I was third in 1984, I was second in 1985, I won in 1986. This type of drug did not exist.The difference between you and me is that I have a 95 VO2 max and you have an 82, and you're - you don't - basically you don't know what you're talking about."(Proving Wonderboy is a clueless, lying POS)

Last edited by 86TDFWinner; 11-06-12 at 05:53.
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  #340  
Old 11-06-12, 06:39
skidmark skidmark is offline
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Originally Posted by 86TDFWinner View Post
, You asked for someone to "go back and read some chapters in some book" What's the name of said book? Now you're mentioning some "passages in a book you've read".......what book was it that you read the supposed passages from? Who wrote the book? what kind of evidence do they give that suggests "everyone was doping"? Please explain.

As for your last post above, you say "everything I've read", again where is this supposed "everything you've read" See, you're making stuff up again as you go along. Please post the said "everything you've read" stuff that suggests "no one was clean", that you keep talking about, please post it here. It must be CREDIBLE info too, not something you've heard, or your dog told you.

I don't know how much simpler I can make the request, please give us the name of the book you supposedly got the info from, and also, please post said passages from said unnamed book. Thank you.

He (she? sorry, not sure of gender of anyone on forums) did name the book, and posted that he didn't have it in front of him so he was paraphrasing. It's the part of his post (well pretty much the whole post) that says:

Why is anyone wrong for suggesting the same about Kimmage? He never rode with Lemond. They weren't chums. How does he know for sure that Lemond was clean?
I don't have Rough Ride in front of me, but I remember more than one passage that would make one wonder if Lemond was indeed clean.
Read the chapter consisting of his Tour diaries. In it, he says he can't believe Lemond won a time trial stage after being dropped by the author in the Giro three weeks before.
Also, read the last chapter, where he expresess concern about revealing the seedy culture of cycling. I think it's called "Spitting in the Soup."
Totally paraphrasing here, but he said he couldn't get into the battle between Lemond and Fignon in the 89 Tour. All he saw were dilated pupils and track marks. He wasn't referring to them specifically, but after reading his book, forgive me if I tend to doubt the authenticity of any Tour winner.


The book is called ROUGH RIDE and it is by PAUL KIMMAGE. I believe there has been sufficient citation posted here that you could probably do the rest of the work yourself if you wanted to find out. By which I mean that demanding direct quotes of relevant passages probably isn't going to change your mind, it's just the other poster's reading of it as insinuation. There is no 'proof' that Lemond doped, and I believe the poster you're responding to also acknowledges that, but rather says that based on a reading of that book, there's reason to doubt that anyone was clean. That's all.
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