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  #341  
Old 11-06-12, 05:40
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ultimobici ultimobici is offline
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Originally Posted by the delgados View Post
@runninboy

I feel I have a reasonable grasp on the history of doping in cycling.
Arguing that top riders in any era were doped is not hard, believe me.
Funny how folks are jumping all over Millar for claiming that Sky are clean.
Consensus seems to be that he has no idea because he's not part of the team. I think that's a fair point.
Why is anyone wrong for suggesting the same about Kimmage? He never rode with Lemond. They weren't chums. How does he know for sure that Lemond was clean?
I don't have Rough Ride in front of me, but I remember more than one passage that would make one wonder if Lemond was indeed clean.
Read the chapter consisting of his Tour diaries. In it, he says he can't believe Lemond won a time trial stage after being dropped by the author in the Giro three weeks before.
Also, read the last chapter, where he expresess concern about revealing the seedy culture of cycling. I think it's called "Spitting in the Soup."
Totally paraphrasing here, but he said he couldn't get into the battle between Lemond and Fignon in the 89 Tour. All he saw were dilated pupils and track marks. He wasn't referring to them specifically, but after reading his book, forgive me if I tend to doubt the authenticity of any Tour winner.
Paraphrasing? No that is when you abbreviate the chapter down to its essence. You have skewed the last but two chapter by focusing on six lines out of 6 pages.

As for the diary, the full effect of his comments is this

Quote:
Greg Lemond won , and I can't quite believe it. Three weeks ago I was dropping him on climbs of the Giro. I am happy for him. He has had a hard time of it since he won the Tour in 1986, but today he bounced back in style - the real mark of a champion.
Quite a different meaning when read in full, isn't it?
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  #342  
Old 11-06-12, 06:20
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86TDFWinner 86TDFWinner is offline
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Originally Posted by ultimobici View Post
Paraphrasing? No that is when you abbreviate the chapter down to its essence. You have skewed the last but two chapter by focusing on six lines out of 6 pages.

As for the diary, the full effect of his comments is this



Quite a different meaning when read in full, isn't it?

Indeed, but notice how said poster didn't post anything remotely resembling that, just his skewed opinion that he claims, is how the author came off, or that he had some sort of "in", where he got said opinion.
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"According to Mrs LeMond, Armstrong said: "There's no way you could have won your Tour de Frances without EPO." And Greg got very angry and said, "Listen, I won my - I was third in 1984, I was second in 1985, I won in 1986. This type of drug did not exist.The difference between you and me is that I have a 95 VO2 max and you have an 82, and you're - you don't - basically you don't know what you're talking about."(Proving Wonderboy is a clueless, lying POS)
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  #343  
Old 11-06-12, 21:23
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86TDFWinner 86TDFWinner is offline
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He (she? sorry, not sure of gender of anyone on forums) did name the book, and posted that he didn't have it in front of him so he was paraphrasing. It's the part of his post (well pretty much the whole post) that says:

[I]Why is anyone wrong for suggesting the same about Kimmage? He never rode with Lemond. They weren't chums. How does he know for sure that Lemond was clean?

First off, let me thank you for FINALLY posting some sort of info as to what you're supposedly talking about, even though it wasn't really that informative, it was hearsay from a book.

I won't comment on the rest bc it's been commented on at lengths here. Keep clining to some passages from a book. Sad you LA fans can't seem to let it go.
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"According to Mrs LeMond, Armstrong said: "There's no way you could have won your Tour de Frances without EPO." And Greg got very angry and said, "Listen, I won my - I was third in 1984, I was second in 1985, I won in 1986. This type of drug did not exist.The difference between you and me is that I have a 95 VO2 max and you have an 82, and you're - you don't - basically you don't know what you're talking about."(Proving Wonderboy is a clueless, lying POS)

Last edited by 86TDFWinner; 11-06-12 at 21:26.
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  #344  
Old 11-06-12, 23:02
the delgados the delgados is online now
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Originally Posted by 86TDFWinner View Post
, You asked for someone to "go back and read some chapters in some book" What's the name of said book? Now you're mentioning some "passages in a book you've read".......what book was it that you read the supposed passages from? Who wrote the book? what kind of evidence do they give that suggests "everyone was doping"? Please explain.

As for your last post above, you say "everything I've read", again where is this supposed "everything you've read" See, you're making stuff up again as you go along. Please post the said "everything you've read" stuff that suggests "no one was clean", that you keep talking about, please post it here. It must be CREDIBLE info too, not something you've heard, or your dog told you.

I don't know how much simpler I can make the request, please give us the name of the book you supposedly got the info from, and also, please post said passages from said unnamed book. Thank you.
Ok, you got me. Rough Ride is a figment of my imagination.
The Secret Race? It's as real as Tyler's vanishing twin.
Silly me, I thought I could pull the wool over your eyes.
P.S. Armstrong fan? Really? Good one.
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  #345  
Old 11-06-12, 23:05
the delgados the delgados is online now
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Originally Posted by ultimobici View Post
Paraphrasing? No that is when you abbreviate the chapter down to its essence. You have skewed the last but two chapter by focusing on six lines out of 6 pages.

As for the diary, the full effect of his comments is this



Quite a different meaning when read in full, isn't it?
For what it's worth, Kimmage had similar words of praise for Roche throughout the book. In fact, Rough Ride read as part expose and part hagiography.
After the release of RR, Kimmage said he regretted heaping so much praise on Roche.
I wonder why.
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  #346  
Old 11-06-12, 23:12
Dr. Maserati Dr. Maserati is offline
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Originally Posted by the delgados View Post
For what it's worth, Kimmage had similar words of praise for Roche throughout the book. In fact, Rough Ride read as part expose and part hagiography.
After the release of RR, Kimmage said he regretted heaping so much praise on Roche.
I wonder why.
Because when Kimmage was on TV and asked directly about Roche & Kelly, PK would not say whether they doped or not.
Roche threatened to sue Kimmage and blasted him in the media.
Thats your why.
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  #347  
Old 11-06-12, 23:22
the delgados the delgados is online now
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Originally Posted by Dr. Maserati View Post
Because when Kimmage was on TV and asked directly about Roche & Kelly, PK would not say whether they doped or not.
Roche threatened to sue Kimmage and blasted him in the media.
Thats your why.
Which reminds me of another pasage in the book when he was asked for an interview my a writer from L'Equipe.
His teammates couldn't understand why a lowly domestique would get a feature interview in such a prestigious publication, but that's neither here nor there.
Point being is he said he heavily edited comments about Roche and Kelly during the interview.
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  #348  
Old 11-06-12, 23:22
pmcg76 pmcg76 is offline
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Originally Posted by 86TDFWinner View Post
First off, let me thank you for FINALLY posting some sort of info as to what you're supposedly talking about, even though it wasn't really that informative, it was hearsay from a book.

I won't comment on the rest bc it's been commented on at lengths here. Keep clining to some passages from a book. Sad you LA fans can't seem to let it go.
I have actually been defending LeMond but seriously, you actually come across as being as defensive as any of the worst Armstrong fans.

I see people are still trying to claim blood doping was being used in ProCycling during the 80's so I decided to make a list.

On this list are rider's, soigneurs or others who have admitted or talked about doping in their career's. All were involved in pro cycling at some point in the 80s. To help illustrate, I will also name their teams during that period.

Paul Kimmage (RMO, Fagor)
Bjarne Riis (Roland, Lucas, Toshiba, Systeme-u)
Willy Voet (SEM, Skil, RMO)
Joe Parkin (TVM, Eurotop, Humo, Tulip)
Peter Winnen (Ijsoberke, Capri-Sonne, Panasonic)
Steven Rooks (SEM, Panasonic, PDM)
Allan Peiper (Peugeot, Panasonic)
Didi Thurau (Hoonved, Del Tongo, Hitachi, Brianzoli, Roland)
Jesper Skibby (Roland, TVM)
Brian Holm (Roland, Sigma-Histor)
Johan Van der Velde (Raleigh, Metauromobili, Panasonic, Gis, TVM)
Dag-Erik Pedersen (Bianchi, Murella, Ariostea, PDM)
Paul Watson (ANC, Hitachi)
Daryl Webster (PMS-Dawes, Teka)
Per Pedersen (RMO, BH)
Soren Lilholt (Systeme-U, Histor)
Bo-Andre Namtvedt (ADR)
Thorjus Larsen (ADR)
Colin Sturgess (ADR)
Maarten Ducrot (Kwantum, Superconfex, Domex, TVM)
Gert-Jan Theunisse (Panasonic, PDM)
Ludo De keulenaar (Raleigh, Panasonic, TVM, Buckler)
Eddy Planckaert (Splendor, Panasonic, ADR)
Mathieu Hermans (SEAT-Orbea, Caja Rural, SEUR)
Jeff D'Hont (Lucas)
Rolf Jaermann (Isotonic, Frank-Magniflex)
Giles Delion (Weinmann, Helvetia)
Laurent Fignon (Renault, Systeme-U)
Pierre-Henri Mentheour (Miko, Coop, La Redoute, Renault)
Andre Chappuis (SEM, Systeme-u, RMO)

Please feel free to add any others I missed.

This is a varied list of riders covering a large cross-section of teams. Not one of them EVER, EVER mentioned blood doping during that era. The earliest mention's of EPO usage are 89 and that seemed a rarity.

So either all these guys who have talked about doping(many admitting to using) are either part of some grand conspiracy to hide blood doping in the 80s or alternatively, blood doping was not actually used in Euro pro cycling during the 80s. I think I know which version has more traction.
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  #349  
Old 11-06-12, 23:31
pmcg76 pmcg76 is offline
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Originally Posted by the delgados View Post
Which reminds me of another pasage in the book when he was asked for an interview my a writer from L'Equipe.
His teammates couldn't understand why a lowly domestique would get a feature interview in such a prestigious publication, but that's neither here nor there.
Point being is he said he heavily edited comments about Roche and Kelly during the interview.
He got the interview because he was a good writer which has proved to be the case in subsequent years. Kimmage clearly had a talent for it. It wasn't because he was anti-doping or anything , technically speaking he was a doper himself at the time even though I don't view him as such. He didn't edit his comments at all, he just waxed lyrical about them.

I don't think Kimmage has ever come out and said Roche, Kelly or Earley were doping during their career's.
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  #350  
Old 11-07-12, 01:13
the delgados the delgados is online now
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Originally Posted by pmcg76 View Post
He got the interview because he was a good writer which has proved to be the case in subsequent years. Kimmage clearly had a talent for it. It wasn't because he was anti-doping or anything , technically speaking he was a doper himself at the time even though I don't view him as such. He didn't edit his comments at all, he just waxed lyrical about them.

I don't think Kimmage has ever come out and said Roche, Kelly or Earley were doping during their career's.
Kimmage doesn't have to come out and say Roche, Kelly, or Earley were doping during their careers.
It's already obvious.
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