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  #51  
Old 11-06-12, 21:57
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Originally Posted by silverrocket View Post
I think the consensus on this forum is that being a doping cyclist does not necessarily make one a "revolting character". In 1998 there really was little choice, and Pantani made the one every other successful cyclist made. In 1999 there was a chance for cycling to turn the page, but Armstrong did more than his share in ensuring that didn't happen. He hardly is responsible for Pantani's death (Pantani is responsible enough for that), but in my opinion if Armstrong had not come back in 1999 Pantani would still be alive today. As mentioned elsewhere on this forum, "The Death of Marco Pantani" is the definitive English-language read for anyone trying to understand MP. A flawed character, but if he is so "revolting", why is/was there so much sympathy for him, but not much for Armstrong?
The answer is pretty easy. Pro cycling has always been massively dysfunctional.
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  #52  
Old 11-06-12, 22:00
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Lets say Armstrong hadn't existed and the 1999 TDF was won by Alex Zulle. Do you think Zulle would have led cycling down the same path that Armstrong did.

I don't know what Zulle's 1999 programme was - maybe he was just as charged up as Armstrong.

I do believe that there was a very small chance for cycling to break with the past in 1999. Armstrong made sure it didn't happen - the failure to break with the past maintained the doping culture and in turn it was this culture that killed Pantani, Jimenez etc
Cocaine killed Pantani, not EPO.
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  #53  
Old 11-06-12, 22:01
peterst6906 peterst6906 is offline
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...Doping destroyed Pantani, Jimenez etc, and Armstrong without a doubt contributed to the doping culture of the 1990s being maintained...
Armstrong was instrumental in not only contributing to the doping culture, but driving it to new heights ('whatever you are doing, the other ****ers are doing it more', etc.).

However, someone like Pantani was old enough and mature enough to take full responsibility for his actions, including his recreational drug use.

Pantani 100% made the choices he made and blaming others is just a different form of the "everyone else was doing it so I had no choice" argument.

While the system is crap, it's only going to change when each individual chooses not to dope. That's where responsibility lies - with each individual at all levels in a team, not with someone from a different team.

Last edited by peterst6906; 11-06-12 at 22:18.
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  #54  
Old 11-06-12, 22:13
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Originally Posted by Mrs John Murphy View Post
Lets say Armstrong hadn't existed and the 1999 TDF was won by Alex Zulle. Do you think Zulle would have led cycling down the same path that Armstrong did.

I don't know what Zulle's 1999 programme was - maybe he was just as charged up as Armstrong.

I do believe that there was a very small chance for cycling to break with the past in 1999. Armstrong made sure it didn't happen - the failure to break with the past maintained the doping culture and in turn it was this culture that killed Pantani, Jimenez etc
Can't buy into that myth anymore (though I ONCE did). Manolo Saiz was a consistent team-doper and (although I'm not positive), Telekom was also team doping.

For a long time I believed the lie that team doping died with Festina.

And Festina still sponsors pro cycling . . . Some things never change.
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  #55  
Old 11-06-12, 22:40
Pazuzu Pazuzu is offline
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Anybody slowly, secretively starting to feel a bit sorry for Lance?
I doubt Armstrong relishes being 'felt sorry for'. That would imply that he's viewed as pathetic.

What Armstong wants is respect. But that has to be earned. Until and unless Armstrong comes clean, apologizes for his actions, makes amends to those he's swindled, and dedicates himself to cleaning up the sport, I HAVE ZERO RESPECT FOR THE MAN. NONE WHATSOEVER!

But I do feel sorry for him.
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  #56  
Old 11-06-12, 22:53
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I doubt Armstrong relishes being 'felt sorry for'. That would imply that he's viewed as pathetic.

What Armstong wants is respect. But that has to be earned. Until and unless Armstrong comes clean, apologizes for his actions, makes amends to those he's swindled, and dedicates himself to cleaning up the sport, I HAVE ZERO RESPECT FOR THE MAN. NONE WHATSOEVER!

But I do feel sorry for him.
Cycling fans shouldn't take Armstrong so seriously now that he's been stripped of his ill-gotten gain. He's a middle-aged doped-up fitness model, for chrissake.
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  #57  
Old 11-06-12, 23:05
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Cycling fans shouldn't take Armstrong so seriously now that he's been stripped of his ill-gotten gain. He's a middle-aged doped-up fitness model, for chrissake.
they're not taking it all so seriously -- they've been dreaming about my t*ts (and rightly so)
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  #58  
Old 11-06-12, 23:08
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they're not taking it all so seriously -- they've been dreaming about my t*ts (and rightly so)
I actually have some gravity boots if you're interested.
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  #59  
Old 11-06-12, 23:49
Velodude Velodude is offline
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Cycling fans shouldn't take Armstrong so seriously now that he's been stripped of his ill-gotten gain. He's a middle-aged doped-up fitness model, for chrissake.
Mountainrman, gree0232 and yourself. All on the same page!
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  #60  
Old 11-06-12, 23:52
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they're not taking it all so seriously -- they've been dreaming about my t*ts (and rightly so)
Only the voyeurs. I take your nick to be your age
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