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  #411  
Old 11-06-12, 23:55
Krebs cycle Krebs cycle is offline
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Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
Ah so before when I pointed out you lose power at altitude, and you replied by shouting LHTL!!!! I was wrong, but now that your mate says LHTH, you agree with him.

Righto.

Just wanted to check your consistency.
I don't know what you are talking about but clearly you don't get the obvious.....

When you first arrive at altitude, you lose power (due to the decrease pO2).

After you spend 1-3 weeks acclimatizing to altitude you recover some of that lost power and you perform better.
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  #412  
Old 11-07-12, 00:02
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Originally Posted by Krebs cycle View Post
I don't know what you are talking about but clearly you don't get the obvious.....

When you first arrive at altitude, you lose power (due to the decrease pO2).

After you spend 1-3 weeks acclimatizing to altitude you recover some of that lost power and you perform better.
Only some? Not all?

So the effect would still be diminishing your power production, and you will still be training ineffectively at reduced power.
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  #413  
Old 11-07-12, 00:04
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Originally Posted by JimmyFingers View Post
If you are going to try to say something sagacious, proof reading is your friend
Ahh see what you mean, thanks for the tip!
Don't see any need for sagaciousness in the forum its positively bereft of it. As for proof reading, well most of the rubbish i've read today - i think once is enough anyway back the thread!
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  #414  
Old 11-07-12, 00:12
peterst6906 peterst6906 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
Ah yes here we go:

That study you linked? says "There was no substantial improvement in time trial performance 2 weeks later."
I think you're arguing something different to Krebs.

Having read only back through the last few posts, Krebs appears to be referring to the benefits of performance at altitude, when you train at altitude.

Your quote from the study though refers to lower altitude performance affects from different training regimes.

It isn't referring to performance in the Alps after training in the Alps.

Last edited by peterst6906; 11-07-12 at 00:14.
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  #415  
Old 11-07-12, 00:20
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Originally Posted by peterst6906 View Post
I think you're arguing something different to Krebs.

Having read only back through the last few posts, Krebs appears to be referring to the benefits of performance at altitude, when you train at altitude.

Your quote from the study though refers to lower altitude performance affects from different training regimes.

It isn't referring to performance in the Alps after training in the Alps.
But if there's 1.1% improvement in 3km TT, and no improvement after 2 weeks, what improvement do you honestly expect after 2 week taper + 1 week of flat land riding at the Tour?
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  #416  
Old 11-07-12, 00:31
peterst6906 peterst6906 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
But if there's 1.1% improvement in 3km TT, and no improvement after 2 weeks, what improvement do you honestly expect after 2 week taper + 1 week of flat land riding at the Tour?
Don't know as I haven't looked at the literature (it's not my area of science, so just a layman like everyone else when it comes to physiology).

Find a study that compares LHTH vs LLTL on performance at altitude and you'll have a quantitative answer.

Qualitatively though, at least the teams believe there is some adaptation advantage of the LHTH approach to performance at altitude, because it's done every year.
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  #417  
Old 11-07-12, 00:33
Krebs cycle Krebs cycle is offline
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Originally Posted by peterst6906 View Post
I think you're arguing something different to Krebs.

Having read only back through the last few posts, Krebs appears to be referring to the benefits of performance at altitude, when you train at altitude.

Your quote from the study though refers to lower altitude performance affects from different training regimes.

It isn't referring to performance in the Alps after training in the Alps.
DW is using the same tactic that he always does when he knows he hasn't got a clue and/or has no comeback because he knows myself or anyone else that he disagrees with is right and he is wrong.....

STRAWMAN ARGUMENT.

Regardless, he is still wrong even when it applies to sea level performance. LHTH, LHTL and LLTH may not always improve sea level performance however the AIS and various other experts in the field have many years of experience using these methods now and they know how to periodize those methods in order to optimize the benefits. DW is pushing sh!t uphill with a stick. Altitude training methods work and that is why thousands upon thousands of elite endurance athletes worldwide have been doing it for the last 30-40yrs and still do and it remains a growing industry.

here is a good recent study on the subject.....

Quote:
Int J Sports Physiol Perform. 2009 Mar;4(1):134-8.
Improved race performance in elite middle-distance runners after cumulative altitude exposure.
Saunders PU, Telford RD, Pyne DD, Gore CJ, Hahn AG.

We quantified the effect of an extended live high-train low (LHTL) simulated altitude exposure followed by a series of training camps at natural moderate altitude on competitive performance in seven elite middle-distance runners (Vo2max 71.4 +/- 3.4 mL.min-1.kg-1, mean +/- SD). Runners spent 44 +/- 7 nights (mean +/- SD) at a simulated altitude of 2846 +/- 32 m, and a further 4 7- to 10-d training at natural moderate altitude (1700-2200 m) before racing. The combination of simulated LHTL and natural altitude training improved competitive performance by 1.9% (90% confidence limits, 1.3-2.5%). Middle-distance runners can confidently use a combination of simulated and natural altitude to stimulate adaptations responsible for improving performance.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19417235

And here are a few recent reviews on the topic....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17805094

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19519223

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20020784

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19203133
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  #418  
Old 11-07-12, 00:40
Krebs cycle Krebs cycle is offline
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Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
But if there's 1.1% improvement in 3km TT, and no improvement after 2 weeks, what improvement do you honestly expect after 2 week taper + 1 week of flat land riding at the Tour?
A 2 week taper you say? You simply and utterly are totally clueless regarding elite cycling preparation. This is what is so laughable about everything you write on this forum, you act as if you're gods gift to cycling performance analysis but you don't know sh!t. I lecture exercise physiology at tertiary level and I can honestly say that out of the hundreds of undergrad students I've taught over the past 2-3yrs, you would have to be in the bottom 10%. Biggest tryhard wannabe cycling expert on this entire forum, probably the entire internet.
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  #419  
Old 11-07-12, 00:56
peterst6906 peterst6906 is offline
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Originally Posted by Krebs cycle View Post
A 2 week taper you say? You simply and utterly are totally clueless regarding elite cycling preparation. This is what is so laughable about everything you write on this forum, you act as if you're gods gift to cycling performance analysis but you don't know sh!t. I lecture exercise physiology at tertiary level and I can honestly say that out of the hundreds of undergrad students I've taught over the past 2-3yrs, you would have to be in the bottom 10%. Biggest tryhard wannabe cycling expert on this entire forum, probably the entire internet.
Time to step away from the keyboard for a bit Krebs, it's only an internet forum and this post won't lead anywhere good.

You won't be able to educate DW, so the investment is not worth the trouble.

I understand the value of debunking charlatans, but sometimes it's doesn't make any difference anyway.
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  #420  
Old 11-07-12, 02:06
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shojii shojii is offline
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Originally Posted by veganrob View Post
Beatin' the bishop, eh.
Haha! When you gotta go, you gotta go...

Right, better go. I've got something really important to do!
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