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  #2261  
Old 11-07-12, 15:20
sniper sniper is online now
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ok, some good points ,GJB, and I'll shut up about it now.

however:
rather preconceived than having my *** fooled again like its 1999.
Ask Phil Ligget. He wasn't preconceived about Armstrong

again, there is nothing to suggest cycling is significantly cleaner or that sky won the tdf clean. So as long as JV utters that, I'll be cynical of everything else he has to say.

JV said it became significantly cleaner after 2007. He still said that yesterday, ffs, meaning: he still ignores Contador 2008/9/10, he ignores Armstrong 2009/10, he ignores the Schlecks, he ignores Evans, he ignores Bruyneel, Riis, the Padua investigation, Del Moral (who stayed in cycling until at least 2010), Marti (who stayed in cycling until at least 2010). Those constitute the front line of present day cycling (post-2007). Does he really believe those guys decided to race clean after 2007? Of course JV doesn't. So why speak of a "truce" called for by "most others"? I'm confused there.
He needs not go around and accuse those guys, of course, but he needn't go around telling us cycling is so much cleaner than it was pre-2007 either. Cuz if you'rve read the news you know that's hogwash.

if at all it is cleaner at present, it is because some guys are scared ****less to get caught, not because some "truce" was called for.

Last edited by sniper; 11-07-12 at 15:31.
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  #2262  
Old 11-07-12, 15:29
Dr. Maserati Dr. Maserati is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpius View Post
JV. What is your opinion in relation to a proposal to introduce an unprecedented anti-doping regulation that would enable the authorities to ban all cyclists for life, from competition, management, or any future employment in any capacity within cycling, for a first time doping offense ?
JV alluded to this on twitter and JVs answer was basically what about Zirbel & Montriger ( 2 guys who tested positive probably through contamination).

I am not answering for Jv but as it shares my view I remembered it and you might get the principal before a good question gets lost in the deluge here.
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  #2263  
Old 11-07-12, 15:41
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manafana manafana is offline
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JV is a prime example that someone can make a mistake in life but then go about doing what they can to ensure otehrs dont make same mistake and main reason the sky policy is a joke, cycling was very tained in the 90s thats how it is, yes lets speak out and name and shame but those who have showing a willingness to speak and change and especially those who spoke early deserve our respect.
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  #2264  
Old 11-07-12, 16:01
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GJB123 GJB123 is offline
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Originally Posted by sniper View Post
ok, some good points ,GJB, and I'll shut up about it now.

however:
rather preconceived than having my *** fooled again like its 1999.
Ask Phil Ligget. He wasn't preconceived about Armstrong

again, there is nothing to suggest cycling is significantly cleaner or that sky won the tdf clean. So as long as JV utters that, I'll be cynical of everything else he has to say.

JV said it became significantly cleaner after 2007. He still said that yesterday, ffs, meaning: he still ignores Contador 2008/9/10, he ignores Armstrong 2009/10, he ignores the Schlecks, he ignores Evans, he ignores Bruyneel, Riis, the Padua investigation, Del Moral (who stayed in cycling until at least 2010), Marti (who stayed in cycling until at least 2010). Those constitute the front line of present day cycling (post-2007). Does he really believe those guys decided to race clean after 2007? Of course JV doesn't. So why speak of a "truce" called for by "most others"? I'm confused there.
He needs not go around and accuse those guys, of course, but he needn't go around telling us cycling is so much cleaner than it was pre-2007 either. Cuz if you'rve read the news you know that's hogwash.

if at all it is cleaner at present, it is because some guys are scared ****less to get caught, not because some "truce" was called for.
You are arguing as if he said it is clean. I think he is well aware of the facts you mention, but nevertheless those facts don't exclude the possibility that cycling has become cleaner compared to the period 1991-say 2006/2007. I don't think he or anyone else have claimed cycling is clean now. All he claimed was that a clean rider can now win one day races AND stage races. That's all. You are again reading way too much in his word. Unfortunately that happens with people who have preconceived ideas. They hear what they want to hear.

You have every right to be skeptical given the history of cycling, just try and be as open minded as possible that things can actually change when you engage in a discussion and I am sure you will find that he discussions become much more constructive interesting and less condescending.

Lastly nobody has said that cycling got cleaner (not clean) because most riders and DS's have suddenly grown a conscience. Quite the contrary and that is reason why cycling still needs a push to vastly improve the anti-doping effort. Funnily enough exactly the same thing JV is advocating and want you are slating him for or at least nit taking seriously for. Personally I don't give a sh!t why people called a "truce" or why doping got dialed back or why you can perhaps win clean now. All I care for that, whatever the reason, it seems to working, albeit slowly.
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  #2265  
Old 11-07-12, 16:25
pmcg76 pmcg76 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GJB123 View Post
You are arguing as if he said it is clean. I think he is well aware of the facts you mention, but nevertheless those facts don't exclude the possibility that cycling has become cleaner compared to the period 1991-say 2006/2007. I don't think he or anyone else have claimed cycling is clean now. All he claimed was that a clean rider can now win one day races AND stage races. That's all. You are again reading way too much in his word. Unfortunately that happens with people who have preconceived ideas. They hear what they want to hear.

You have every right to be skeptical given the history of cycling, just try and be as open minded as possible that things can actually change when you engage in a discussion and I am sure you will find that he discussions become much more constructive interesting and less condescending.

Lastly nobody has said that cycling got cleaner (not clean) because most riders and DS's have suddenly grown a conscience. Quite the contrary and that is reason why cycling still needs a push to vastly improve the anti-doping effort. Funnily enough exactly the same thing JV is advocating and want you are slating him for or at least nit taking seriously for. Personally I don't give a sh!t why people called a "truce" or why doping got dialed back or why you can perhaps win clean now. All I care for that, whatever the reason, it seems to working, albeit slowly.
I had to laugh when sniper mentioned JV bending facts. Nobody bends things better than Sniper and his chums. They do the very things that they criticise people on here for but fail to see the irony.
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  #2266  
Old 11-07-12, 16:31
martinvickers martinvickers is offline
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Originally Posted by Benotti69 View Post
I doubt anyone ever considered the clinic frontline.

It is a palce that discusses information on doping and is an outlet for doping in cycling. The levels and quality of the information vary.

That the Sky threads are full of people who post nowhere else but defending Sky continuosly shows the influence of the clinic.

That Vaughter's comes in here, that Armstrong and his many minions have been and continue to try to obfuscate the information shows that the clinic is influential.

Its influence will end when doping ends.
I don't necessarily agree, but I appreciate the civility in the response.
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  #2267  
Old 11-07-12, 16:36
sniper sniper is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GJB123 View Post
You are arguing as if he said it is clean.
https://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/225617454045478913

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  #2268  
Old 11-07-12, 16:46
Dr. Maserati Dr. Maserati is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmcg76 View Post
I had to laugh when sniper mentioned JV bending facts. Nobody bends things better than Sniper and his chums. They do the very things that they criticise people on here for but fail to see the irony.
Ya, and then right on cue.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper View Post
Did you not read the replies sniper - or were you hoping no-one would check...

Fmkroi- I'd say cleaner, a lot cleaner. Still clearly some dopers out there. And still some teams that need to improve the PR msg.
Vaughters - true true
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  #2269  
Old 11-07-12, 16:48
RownhamHill RownhamHill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GJB123 View Post
You are arguing as if he said it is clean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmcg76 View Post
I had to laugh when sniper mentioned JV bending facts. Nobody bends things better than Sniper and his chums. They do the very things that they criticise people on here for but fail to see the irony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper View Post
So I just clicked the link above, to a twitter conversation, which I've copy and pasted:

Jonathan Vaughters
‏@Vaughters
@fmk_RoI 1999 dauphine, ventoux stage: VAM 1912, w/kg 6.8.... See why I feel cycling is clean now?

1-0 to Sniper!

18 Jul fmk ‏@fmk_RoI
@Vaughters I'd say cleaner, a lot cleaner. Still clearly some dopers out there. And still some teams that need to improve the PR msg.

18 Jul Jonathan Vaughters
@fmk_RoI true true.

Oh. Wait a minute. . .

EDIT Sorry Doc, you beat me to it!
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  #2270  
Old 11-07-12, 17:14
sniper sniper is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Maserati View Post
Ya, and then right on cue.....

Did you not read the replies sniper - or were you hoping no-one would check...

Fmkroi- I'd say cleaner, a lot cleaner. Still clearly some dopers out there. And still some teams that need to improve the PR msg.
Vaughters - true true
it's what you'd call backtracking
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