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  #571  
Old 11-07-12, 21:58
coinneach coinneach is offline
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Its a really interesting thread this; and goes right to the heart of pro-cycling.
Its much better than any on the Clinic, where you basically have believers and non believers slagging eachother off.
It also touches on cycling's other great secret (after drugs) which is far more powerful: MONEY!
Being a fan for some time, I know most of the rules: many new fans of cycling don't understand why team mates don't try to win against each other.
I know about being paid (in cash or quid pro quo) to chase a break down etc.
But what these two riders did (and nobody can seriously doubt that they did) goes beyond acceptable to me.
I though people were booing at the finish because they didn't like Vino: maybe they understood what had gone on better than I did at the time.
(Even after thinking about the Olympics for a couple of days, I don't think the same thing happened there though.
Uran is not a good finisher, but you couldn't really make up what a mess he made of that.)
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  #572  
Old 11-07-12, 22:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afrank View Post
I mean cheating as in the sense that it alters the race. Just breaking the rules is not cheating unless it gives you a distinct advantage (holding onto a car for example gives you a advantage, wearing a rain coat that isn't clear does not give anyone an advantage). Sure Vino might have won anyways, but maybe Kolobnev would have gotten the better of him (he said himself he was feeling great that day). We've seen in many many races the guy everyone expects to win lose out to another guy. Boonen v. Vanmarcke or Rabottini v. Purito for example. Nobody has any idea who would have won that race had Kolobnev not excepted the bribe.

I agree with you that Kolobnev is no victim, as far as I am concerned, both of them are at fault here.
A gc contender paying a fellow breakaway rider with a stage win to cooperate alters the race and gives the gc contender a significant advantage...

Btw: where in the uci regulations does it say that you can't pay off another rider?
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  #573  
Old 11-07-12, 22:25
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The problem is the attitude of said riders. Vino would pay money for someone else to lose a race on purpose. That shows he'll do whatever it takes to win. That makes it fairly easy to assume he wouldn't mind taking dope. After all, he probably convinced himself he doesn't cheat because everyone else does/did it.

Kolobnev was also the fastest man on paper. He won the sprint of the group behind Gilbert and Samu Sanchez in 2009 which also included Alexandr Vinokourov.

The strongest/smartest rider should win. Not the guy with the most money. One's financial status should have NO effect on the race. If you cannot understand that...
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Originally Posted by Ryo Hazuki View Post
horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato
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Originally Posted by The Hitch
Goss will woop boonens candy ass in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week

Last edited by El Pistolero; 11-07-12 at 22:31.
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  #574  
Old 11-07-12, 22:36
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Whether you pay off your rivals or not, your financial status effects your opportunities.
Like it or not, that's how the world works.
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  #575  
Old 11-07-12, 22:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnus View Post
Whether you pay off your rivals or not, your financial status effects your opportunities.
Like it or not, that's how the world works.
Your prestige status might affect a race, but I fail to see how your financial status effects your opportunities. A big name will get more respect in the peloton and will get a better treatment, but I doubt that has anything to do with his financial status. You earn respect in the peloton by winning big races.

The world doesn't work with just bribery you know. Some people win fair and square.

The reason Cavendish wins more/better sprints is not because he has more money than Marcel Kittel. He's just better, for now.

Vinokourov has treated Monuments with little respect. You don't sell or buy a Monument. If he wants to fix races he should stick to criteriums.
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Originally Posted by Ryo Hazuki View Post
horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hitch
Goss will woop boonens candy ass in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week

Last edited by El Pistolero; 11-07-12 at 22:59.
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  #576  
Old 11-07-12, 23:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pistolero View Post
Your prestige status might affect a race, but I fail to see how your financial status effects your opportunities. A big name will get more respect in the peloton and will get a better treatment, but I doubt that has anything to do with his financial status. You earn respect in the peloton by winning big races.

The world doesn't work with just bribery you know. Some people win fair and square.

The reason Cavendish wins more/better sprints is not because he has more money than Marcel Kittel. He's just better, for now.
Well, since you bring up Cavendish:
If he was infinite rich and could sponsor his own team he would probably have won more than 3 stages in TdF this year.
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  #577  
Old 11-07-12, 23:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnus View Post
Well, since you bring up Cavendish:
If he was infinite rich and could sponsor his own team he would probably have won more than 3 stages in TdF this year.
How many cyclists do you know that sponsor their own team? Obviously the financial status of a team effects a race. I'm not talking about that. If you have good results you'll be able to join a better team with better support. If you suck you won't have a good support team around you.

Of course in the past teams have also (tried) to bribe cyclists. Take for example Frank Vandenbroucke's first stage win in the Vuelta... The team manager of his breakaway colleague asked for money to let VDB win the race. Frank VDB said "I'll think about it". A moment later he accelerated and his breakaway colleague struggled to hold his wheel. Frank returned to the team manager and said "You give ME money for him to get second or I will not protect him from the wind any longer." Not every cyclist is a sell out like Kolobnev.
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Originally Posted by Ryo Hazuki View Post
horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hitch
Goss will woop boonens candy ass in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week

Last edited by El Pistolero; 11-07-12 at 23:10.
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  #578  
Old 11-07-12, 23:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pistolero View Post
How many cyclists do you know that sponsor their own team?
About as many as I think your question is of relevance for this discussion.
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  #579  
Old 11-07-12, 23:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnus View Post
A gc contender paying a fellow breakaway rider with a stage win to cooperate alters the race and gives the gc contender a significant advantage...

Btw: where in the uci regulations does it say that you can't pay off another rider?
A gc guy gifting a stage is nothing like buying a race. First of all it is not against the rules. Second, gifting stages has likely been part of cycling (and been an accepted part) since the sport was created. And third Gifting a stage is part of the tactics game in cycling but there is no tactical advantage in buying a race.
There is a big difference between a rider saying "help me move up on the GC and you can have the stage" and saying "I'll give you 150,000 to let me win."

Besides the situation here is a single day classic, not a stage race. So that argument really isn't relevant here.
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  #580  
Old 11-08-12, 00:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afrank View Post
A gc guy gifting a stage is nothing like buying a race. First of all it is not against the rules. Second, gifting stages has likely been part of cycling (and been an accepted part) since the sport was created. And third Gifting a stage is part of the tactics game in cycling but there is no tactical advantage in buying a race.
1) You could say it's against the moral rules of sport if you don't try your hardest to win .
2) Buying races has been an accepted (by the riders) part of racing since the sport was created.
3) How is having someone to cooperate with you not a tactical advantage?
It's not like the L-B-L victory is a commodity that Kolobnev could hand over to Vino. He sold his cooperation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Afrank View Post
There is a big difference between a rider saying "help me move up on the GC and you can have the stage" and saying "I'll give you 150,000 to let me win."
At the end of the day a stage-win is worth a certain amount in total (prize money, publicity, increased future earnings etc.).
The only difference is that in one case the price is explicitly agreed upon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Afrank View Post
Besides the situation here is a single day classic, not a stage race. So that argument really isn't relevant here.
I assumed a more general discussion about riders paying each other off in general. Not just the specific incident.

So you think it's ok for a GC contender to pay another rider with a stage for his cooperation, but not on rider to pay another a cash amount in a one day race. OK. But then where do you draw the line?

Was the quickstep rider helping Andy in the Galibier stage ok?
Is Contador giving Tiralongo a stage for acting as his teammate even when he's not ok?
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