Sky - Page 819 - Cyclingnews Forum

Go Back   Cyclingnews Forum > Road > The Clinic

The Clinic The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #8181  
Old 11-07-12, 22:54
Froome19's Avatar
Froome19 Froome19 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: London
Posts: 3,086
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehog View Post
Yes Froome showed his real talent many times .
I refer you to this: http://velorooms.com/the-doping-sect...9781/#msg59781


An abridged version: with paragraphs cut out here and there to fit into the word limit
Quote:


Froome's first team was Team Konica Minolta and they were a South African team with limited resources as expected. In his first season he did relatively well a win at the Tour of Japan was followed by a number of placings around the globe as his team charted unprecedented territory.

It was at the Giro delle Regioni where Froome really started to show potential and in retrospect his perfomances were quite remarkable for a rider who was competing with such a distinct disadvantage due to his lack of skills and professional training. He won the primary mountain stage ahead of riders who have now become household names, the likes of Tour de France stage winner Rui Costa and Bauke Mollema who came 4th at the Vuelta 2011 amonst others.

This has been Froome's first real crack at proper European racing and he had taken to it amazingly well considering his limiting circumstances. In fact Froome would have dominated the race if not for his chain braking in the closing meters of the other major stage.

Yet even considering the amazing perfomance Froome has put in, it was not enough. He had been racing for the WCC (World Cycling Centre Team) whilst in Europe and the coach of the team Michael Theze said of Froome that...

Quote:
He's not a technical rider yet. He fell four time during the race. Two of his falls came in the third stage, costing him 1:20. When you see that in the final ranking he is only 1:25 behind the winner it isn't difficult to do the maths."
It is obvious to us in retrospect that Froome was still far behind the other riders when it came to the technical skills required to race at the highest level and this placed him at a significant disadvantage.

Then in 2008 Froome was eventually snapped up by Barloworld and was therefore under the direction of their Italian manager Claudio Corti, now the manager of Farnese Vini. As would be expected of any neo-pro - no matter their talent - who was only starting out in their career, the season was to be used merely as an eye opener for Froome and for him to truly adjust to the European style of racing.

Yet even so Froome was impressive he finished in the Top 10 in a number of minor races and he safely finished a number of high profile classics such as Liege Bastogne Liege and La Fleche Wallone. His most impressive result though was his 5th place finish in a TT at the Vuelta asturias where he managed to finish a mere 26 seconds behind Samuel Sanchez the soon to be Olympic champion.

Froome was certainly showing signs of his potential. He was then given the opportunity to ride his first Grand Tour - the Tour de France and he battled through it, and then managing to eventually finish 14th on the final stage which was a TT.

If there was ever a test of strength to determine whether Froome had the potential to become a future Grand Tour contender it was this. Without the proper training or techniques and not being used to the rigours of a 3 week race, Froome nevertheless posted what would be considered a magnificent result for any neo-pro. Indeed this had already been proven a few days earlier when he had been climbing with the lead group for the majority of the Alpe d'huez climb.


This was what his team manage Claudio Corti had to say at the time. Corti claimed that Froome whom he dubbed his “white Kenyan” would

Quote:
Finish in the top 5 of the Tour de France, or do even better”
Clearly Corti had seen what Froome was capable of and believed that he was indeed innately capable. He just was not racing at the level he was capable of racing at, because of the reason stated above, that he was hindered by his lack of technical prowess.

Then Froome joined Sky and his career would be totally altered. Sky had just started up and it took time for him to adjust. The whole set up was new to Froome and from what I have seen and heard it seems to be that Froome was on the outskirts of this setup. The Sky team were not as methodical then with all their riders as they are now and considering how Froome was still considered to be a peripheral member of the squad and therefore not treated with the same respect as riders like Wiggins, his technical skills were still rather poor and this still hindered him. But even more than that the defining reason for his poor reasons in 2010, which were headlined by a Tour de Haut var 9th place, was due to the fact that on Holiday in Kenya he had contracted the disease of Bilharzia.

Quote:
“Either in Kenya or South Africa, I got a water parasite, which is really difficult to get rid of.
"We found out that I had it last December, I had a full blood screening in Africa as they regularly check for it over there.
“It feeds on red blood cells so for an endurance athlete it’s a nightmare. It’s something I’m conscious of, in a three-week race you’re bound to have ups and downs.
Yet the Sky management team had in fact noticed his potential and had in fact described him as
Quote:
a rough diamond, in need of shaping and polishing"
When Froome joined the team back in early 2010.

This is another indication of people who believed in Froome and that he was capable, but just had to improve his technical skills. And of course get over his Bilharzia.

Yet Bilharzia is an infection by parasites who lay eggs deep within the human body and therefore it is very difficult to get rid off.

Entering into the 2011 season Froome had two objectives if was to fulfil his potential. One was to get rid of the Bilharzia and the other was to increase his technical skills.

Luckily for him Bobby Julich had just arrived at Sky and he was assigned to Froome for the 2011 season. This was the first time that Froome had had the opportunity to work with a coach of Julich’s experience and calibre one to one and immediately Julich noted his riders potential.

Quote:
We did some lab testing with him early in the year and it wasn’t making sense. I saw the numbers and said to Rod Ellingworth that the machines must be calibrated wrong, because these were the numbers of a guy who would finish on the Tour de France podium. Rod told me that, no, they were right. I was amazed.
Yet it soon became apparent to Julich as to the reason why Froome had underperformed so badly over the past 2 years..

Quote:
But then when we started working together I realised straight away that Chris needed some work on organisation and structure. He was a real tinkerer- always changing his shoes, his training, his diet or whatever. He had also continued to train too much even when he was suffering with the parasite, which had knocked his confidence as well as his energy levels.

Beyond that it was all very basic stuff last year; Chris did not know how to race. I needed to teach him how to get the watts out at the right time. To do that we tried to hold him back in the first few stages in the Vuelta last year, get him to race steadily and this year we basically used the same tactic at Romandie, the Dauphine and the Tour”
I do not believe there is much better proof than that. It was obvious once again here that Froome had been hindered by his lack of education when it came to how to ride a bike.

Likewise Richard Moore commented on Froome’s website that:

Quote:
After a difficult first season with Team Sky in 2010, he appears to have taken a big step forward this season, partly by working to reduce his upper body movement. Previously, by his own admission, Froome was "literally all over my bike".
"One of the things I want to do is calm my upper body down and become more stable," he explained.
Smooth
Froome thus spent many hours doing core-strengthening Pilates
Once again the reference to the way in which Froome rode his bike as being “all over”, clearly highlights his deficiencies at the time.

And finally he was starting to get rid of the parasite disease which had bugged him so much. Indeed he was still adapting and learning with :Julich though and his performances were gradually improving as a result. He came 8th on a Romandie mountain stage. And top 10s at the Tour de Suisse and Tour of Luxembourg. It was not much granted, but it was clearly signs that he had finally managed to overcome his technical difficulties and was shaking off the effects of the Bilharzia. And of course the rest is very much a part of history.


In conclusion I believe it was always evident that Froome had the potential to become a future Tour de France podium finished.

Indeed his results in his 2007 season spoke volumes for his capabilities, yet when he turned pro it was obvious he could not continue to match those riders he had previously beaten unless he could improve his technical skills. Even if people do not believe his claim of having Bilharzia ,and I am in very little doubt myself at to its validity, it would still be safe to say that he was hindered by his lack of technical skills.

It is logical to assume that without those hindrances Chris Froome would have burst onto the scene much earlier than when he in fact did.

Coupled with his Bilharzia he was very much inhibited in his first year at Sky, but gradually once he learnt the tricks of the trade he became the rider he is today.
The fact is that we have given suitable proof to suggest are not necessarily doping in order to oppose your supposed proofs that Sky are doping and yet you seem to brandish those proofs repeatedly after.

They may not be entirely convincing, but you treat them as if they are entirely invalid.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pistolero View Post
Gratz to Cav.
Reply With Quote
  #8182  
Old 11-07-12, 22:54
Libertine Seguros's Avatar
Libertine Seguros Libertine Seguros is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Land of Saíz
Posts: 14,205
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by postmanhat View Post
That's almost as desperate than some of Hog's silly season guff

He should have never entered pro-cycling on principle?

Only guilty people get angry?

He's a sportsman, not the Dalai Lama
More that he made some comments that later bit him on the ***.

He said that TDF winners would come under suspicion for the next six years. However, he said that in 2007, and probably had no idea at the time that he would be one of those winners. He got angry when that same suspicion that he acknowledged would be justified fell upon him because he fit the criteria.

He drew parallels between Sky and USPS, and really should have known that there were various things swirling around USPS that would mean that people who recognised the allusion wouldn't only draw the parallels Wiggins wanted them to.

Either way, what's done is done.
__________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrFiUlhAPes

Forever tête de la course.
Reply With Quote
  #8183  
Old 11-07-12, 22:55
JimmyFingers's Avatar
JimmyFingers JimmyFingers is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,874
Default

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012...hospital-crash

Last edited by palmerq; 11-08-12 at 03:18.
Reply With Quote
  #8184  
Old 11-07-12, 23:20
Zam_Olyas's Avatar
Zam_Olyas Zam_Olyas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Rubber Plantation.
Posts: 7,692
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmcg76 View Post
Wait, I thought it was Ellingworth who was coaching Wiggin's in 2009 whilst at Garmin. So are you saying that even Ellingworth viewed Froome as a bigger GC potential than Wiggin's. Was Wiggins's own coach caught by surprise by his own protege. Something doesn't quite add up here.
Good point again pmcg.
Reply With Quote
  #8185  
Old 11-07-12, 23:27
JimmyFingers's Avatar
JimmyFingers JimmyFingers is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,874
Default

Hang on, this is dangerously on-topic
Reply With Quote
  #8186  
Old 11-07-12, 23:29
postmanhat postmanhat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Derby, UK
Posts: 422
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine Seguros View Post
More that he made some comments that later bit him on the ***.

He said that TDF winners would come under suspicion for the next six years. However, he said that in 2007, and probably had no idea at the time that he would be one of those winners. He got angry when that same suspicion that he acknowledged would be justified fell upon him because he fit the criteria.

He drew parallels between Sky and USPS, and really should have known that there were various things swirling around USPS that would mean that people who recognised the allusion wouldn't only draw the parallels Wiggins wanted them to.

Either way, what's done is done.
Nice reply.

If I consider some of the things I've said/done/opinions stated over the last few years
Reply With Quote
  #8187  
Old 11-08-12, 00:15
Libertine Seguros's Avatar
Libertine Seguros Libertine Seguros is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Land of Saíz
Posts: 14,205
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Froome19 View Post
I refer you to this: http://velorooms.com/the-doping-sect...9781/#msg59781


An abridged version: with paragraphs cut out here and there to fit into the word limit


The fact is that we have given suitable proof to suggest are not necessarily doping in order to oppose your supposed proofs that Sky are doping and yet you seem to brandish those proofs repeatedly after.

They may not be entirely convincing, but you treat them as if they are entirely invalid.
Weirdly though, the bilharzia has been backdated. It is a hard disease to diagnose and can go undiagnosed for a long time, so it's plausible, but previously he had only mentioned catching it at the end of 2010.

Either way, again the trees can be explained but the forest is hard to ignore; there is no getting around how this bilharzia caused him to struggle for nearly two years, then cleared up miraculously in time to place him in a GT where this clean warrior was only defeated by Juan José Cobo thanks to time bonuses, and actually finished the GT in the fastest time, then after helping Britain pick up the rainbow jersey, he promptly caught it straightaway again! This resulted in him not picking up a single CQ point until he got 5 just for making it to the end of Romandie, until it miraculously cleared up in time for the Dauphiné, giving him just enough time to train up to peak form to finish in the top 5 of two straight GTs and pick up an Olympic medal.

I believe the bilharzia existed, and is part of the reason for his stagnation and regression between those promising-but-not-too-spectacular early showings and his spectacular coming-out party in Spain, but I also am extremely suspicious of the very convenient timing of it, both for the results and for the contracts. Elements of Froome's backstory make sense and provide some perspective to the transformation... but some of it falls into place rather too conveniently for me to swallow it as being wholly sanguine, and frankly, there's improvement, there's transformation and then there's Froome, and I can't unsee what I've seen from him. In a vacuum, discussing the stories, I can convince myself that, like Blackcat says (and Blackcat is one of Froome's staunchest defenders on this board), Froome is acting no differently to anyone else, whether that mean clean or dirty, and is a top natural talent... but when I watch his rides at the 2011 Vuelta and the 2012 Tour, looking like he's got energy to spare, I can't convince myself of that anymore.
__________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrFiUlhAPes

Forever tête de la course.
Reply With Quote
  #8188  
Old 11-08-12, 03:19
palmerq's Avatar
palmerq palmerq is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,776
Default

thread got a bit odd and offtopic, so i have removed a few of the posts and edited some others...
__________________
semi literate sausige
Reply With Quote
  #8189  
Old 11-08-12, 03:43
Telmisartan new Telmisartan new is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: West of Scotland
Posts: 282
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine Seguros View Post
Weirdly though, the bilharzia has been backdated. It is a hard disease to diagnose and can go undiagnosed for a long time, so it's plausible, but previously he had only mentioned catching it at the end of 2010.

Either way, again the trees can be explained but the forest is hard to ignore; there is no getting around how this bilharzia caused him to struggle for nearly two years, then cleared up miraculously in time to place him in a GT where this clean warrior was only defeated by Juan José Cobo thanks to time bonuses, and actually finished the GT in the fastest time, then after helping Britain pick up the rainbow jersey, he promptly caught it straightaway again! This resulted in him not picking up a single CQ point until he got 5 just for making it to the end of Romandie, until it miraculously cleared up in time for the Dauphiné, giving him just enough time to train up to peak form to finish in the top 5 of two straight GTs and pick up an Olympic medal.

I believe the bilharzia existed, and is part of the reason for his stagnation and regression between those promising-but-not-too-spectacular early showings and his spectacular coming-out party in Spain, but I also am extremely suspicious of the very convenient timing of it, both for the results and for the contracts. Elements of Froome's backstory make sense and provide some perspective to the transformation... but some of it falls into place rather too conveniently for me to swallow it as being wholly sanguine, and frankly, there's improvement, there's transformation and then there's Froome, and I can't unsee what I've seen from him. In a vacuum, discussing the stories, I can convince myself that, like Blackcat says (and Blackcat is one of Froome's staunchest defenders on this board), Froome is acting no differently to anyone else, whether that mean clean or dirty, and is a top natural talent... but when I watch his rides at the 2011 Vuelta and the 2012 Tour, looking like he's got energy to spare, I can't convince myself of that anymore.
A wonderful post,there's something strangely admirable about Chris Froome,some top posters on here like him and so do i(despite Airstream thinking i hate him),genuine nice guy(unlike his rival Wiggo)who presents himself well in public and is an incredible Grand Tour rider,want to believe the "late developer" line of reasoning but not sure i do.Everyone thought Bobby Julich his mentor was a nice guy,i didn't.Did you see the way he spoke about his mechanic on the CSC documentary! Truly shocking,Julich and Froome,dopers in arms.....
Reply With Quote
  #8190  
Old 11-08-12, 04:15
Galic Ho's Avatar
Galic Ho Galic Ho is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,489
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehog View Post
What DOES makes me laugh is this guy.



I don't know his name but seeing him at the 2009 Giro and watching him zig zag up hills its hard to believe that he has become a Contador-esque climber.

Yes thats him at right angles behind Gerrans.

Full video at 7:27: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEGpv0xn0E8

That makes me laugh me more than postcodes and humble guys from Kilburn.

I hope he can win the Tour next year so I read how small town guy from Monaco won the Tour
Ditto. I get the impression that Froome learnt a thing or two about how the peloton races during that Giro. Gotta be one of the dirtiest GT's post Armstrong's 2005 Tour win (stripped of course).

Just looking at Di Luca, Menchov, Garzelli and Pellizotti dropping everyone else was beyond a joke. Where are they now? Retired, busted and a shadow of their former selves. Even Basso who won the next year was shelled out on that climb. Yet it raises no alarm bells among the loyal acolytes that Froome, that Froome in the video getting spanked senseless by Simon Gerrans of all people, is now seen as the only rider capable of matching Contador!

That's right, nothing to see here people...move along, move along.

PS: @matliv. Your Contador example is beyond retarded. How did he respond after his bonk? Absolutely rode the peloton into the ground ALONE and it required both Saxo Bank and Caisse d'Epargne to pull him back so Franck Schleck and LuLu could respectively maintain their 1st and 2nd podium places. You have a short memory. Short indeed and selectively biased. Contador was only just off winning after his bonk. Sheesh, get with the program dude...

Last edited by Galic Ho; 11-08-12 at 04:24.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:18.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.