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  #81  
Old 11-07-12, 17:58
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thehog thehog is offline
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Originally Posted by MarkvW View Post

And when the next Lance Armstrong comes along, the peloton will be the willing accomplice of that dope cheat as well.
And he may have already come along in the form of cielo.
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  #82  
Old 11-07-12, 18:00
thegripo thegripo is offline
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Originally Posted by MarkvW View Post
I don't disagree with you about Lance. But the peloton was not a victim of Lance--it was his willing accomplice.

And when the next Lance Armstrong comes along, the peloton will be the willing accomplice of that dope cheat as well.
^this

i've been saying the same for a while. I'm sick of the anti-fan-fanboys pinning everything that's wrong on cycling on LAnce.

he cheated, he lied, and he finally got caught. good riddance.

BUT, a new lance WILL start crushing every race, maybe he's already here, and it's sad that the anti lance brigade will still be writing threads to keep on proving how lance cheated since 1991....
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  #83  
Old 11-08-12, 00:01
Pazuzu Pazuzu is offline
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Lance will hang low for a while, wait for this to blow over, then re-emerge as with the cancer fighting trope, "pursue my life's work" blah, blah, blah...

Thing is, it may not work. As gullible as the American public can be, they don't like being played. Now that the general public knows the full extent of Wonderboy's deception, not to mention the appalling behavior he engaged in to cover it up, they may not be inclined to forgive him, especially if he doesn't come clean.
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  #84  
Old 11-08-12, 00:10
mountainrman mountainrman is offline
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Originally Posted by ebandit View Post
seriously? your dislike of big george appears less than objective

lance cheated to those 7 tour wins and deserved to lose them all

i read an ioc member announce the obvious 'lance has no credibility'

ouch! poor lance..............that's gotta hurt!
I don't dislike Big George.But the fact that others liked him too much is the problem.The only thing you can construe from the lack of sentence is too many other people "liked" him, who should have been judging objectively instead

Lance could not have won without a group of committed, knowing and willing helpers such as George - every justice system would regard his part in the conspiracy as fundamental and just as culpable. Everywhere but in cycling, "the nazi defence" that is the "just doing what i was told" is no defence at all.

That is the reason that the likes of Tygart must not be allowed to pass sentence again. He was out to get Lance, not judge the team as a whole objectivel, so completely imbalanced the sentences.

The fact that lance won is a complete irrelevance. It is doping that is the crime, not winning, or getting caught. And Hincapie doped for a decade too, trying to help cheat Lance into yellow so there is nothing to pick between them.

The only crime that discriminates lance from george is systematic intimidation which should be sanctioned additionally. But then McQuaid is good at that too, and bad mouths and insult everyone who points out the reality of doping, including Betsy for example, even suing **** Pound of WADA - so if lance deserves sanction for that , so does McQuaid.

Until cycling sorts its justice out, there is no hope.

Till then we will keep scapegoating a few, saying the sport is clean. Until the next scandal that is.
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  #85  
Old 11-08-12, 00:35
Pazuzu Pazuzu is offline
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Originally Posted by mountainrman View Post
That is the reason that the likes of Tygart must not be allowed to pass sentence again. He was out to get Lance, not judge the team as a whole objectivel, so completely imbalanced the sentences.

The fact that lance won is a complete irrelevance. It is doping that is the crime, not winning, or getting caught. And Hincapie doped for a decade too, trying to help cheat Lance into yellow so there is nothing to pick between them.
Where's that smiley icon hitting its head against a brick wall?

Lance, was given an opportunity to cooperate with USADA's investigation just like every other rider. Had he cooperated he would have been allowed to retain Five TdF titles, which is pretty generous considering he didn't earn any of them. But Lance told USADA to go to hell. Now he has to live with the consequences.
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Last edited by Pazuzu; 11-08-12 at 01:15.
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  #86  
Old 11-08-12, 01:21
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Alpe d'Huez Alpe d'Huez is online now
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I feel absolutely no pity for LA at all. Not one iota. He's still extremely wealthy and built that wealth dishonestly. He has lived life in the lap of luxury and adulation for the last twenty years, and it was all based on deceit and fraud.

Ask me again in another 20 years.
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  #87  
Old 11-08-12, 01:31
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DirtyWorks DirtyWorks is offline
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Originally Posted by mountainrman View Post
Lance could not have won without a group of committed, knowing and willing helpers such as George - every justice system would regard his part in the conspiracy as fundamental and just as culpable. Everywhere but in cycling, "the nazi defence" that is the "just doing what i was told" is no defence at all.
Don't get out much, do you. Let this one go too. Sometimes you cut the lower-ranked criminals some slack for turning on the boss.


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Originally Posted by mountainrman View Post
That is the reason that the likes of Tygart must not be allowed to pass sentence again. He was out to get Lance, not judge the team as a whole objectivel, so completely imbalanced the sentences..
Ugh. Again, you are re-writing history to have it fit your crazy outlook. There were a few others charged at the same time... Marti, Del Moral, and The Hog.

WADA was designed to provide the appearance of a legitimate anti-doping process. Proof of that is Wonderboy's lawyer was part of the team that fabricated the thing. It was designed to be a toothless, 2 kilo dog. Harmless! Wonderboy and the others charged were so deep into their fraud the foundation for the sanctions was like USADA getting a gift. It is Wonderboy's fault for running an egregiously fraudulent enterprise for which he still hasn't been criminally charged. Wonderboy, and his boss Thom Wiesel did this to themselves.
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Last edited by DirtyWorks; 11-08-12 at 01:34.
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  #88  
Old 11-08-12, 01:33
Dr. Maserati Dr. Maserati is offline
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Originally Posted by mountainrman View Post
I agree entirely - it is a big mistake to blame armstrong for the culture - because it shifts blame from many others who need similar sanction for similar deeds.

The only thing Armstrong did that went "over and above" the others was the legal enforcement of omerta in a particularly vindictive way - which deserves an extra period of ban. But then - part of that problem is the amoral legal profession that will do anything and recommend anything provided you pay them enough: no doubt some of the "dirty tricks" were not even dreamed up by Armstrong, although he must carry the can for anything done in his name.



Nothing to do with it in Hincapies case.

Hincapie is a rat that was last to desert a sinking ship - and the ONLY reason he confessed was a gun pointed at his head and a picture of Marion Jones. Leipheimer stated once they give you immunity you have no choice but tell all or jail for contempt or perjury, so that is the reason he spoke ditto Leipheimer, ditto no doubt Landis etc ( I recollect he did not go to Novitsky after a phone call until served a subpoena - or was that Hamilton?). Once Hincapie had confessed to the feds, he could assume his testimony sooner or later would either leak or appear in public domain, so had little choice but to tell all to Tygart.

None of them would or should risk jail for lance.

He confessed because it cost him nothing. Zero. He was allowed to ride his last TdF( which was outrageous!) and then retire, with a meaningless ban.

If there was any justice in cycling that should not be. He was a key and wiling "officer" in the army that conspired and career doper before and after lance. So Lance (lifetime ban) and Hincapie (no real sanction) is clearly wrong. The nazi defence has never been allowed in any real court of law "I am not the bad guy, because the boss told me too _ I only did what I was told, I did not run the show "that defence only works in kangaroo courts. It is not allowed in any real justice. Hincapie is as guity as Lance and Bruyneel. Without a willing and able bunch of Hincapies, lance could not have done what he did. Cycling is a team sport. The entire team conspired willingly, not just the leader.

Those who think that Hincapie is "good" because he confessed and Lance is "bad" are ignoring the unlevel playing field. Hincapie was given immunity. Lance was not. And tit is that (not Hincapie being a nice fellow) is the difference in why Lance has not confessed.

So you cannot judge lance on whether he "confessed" or not, until the penalties for doing so are made the same as all the other rats..

I think it is wrong to scapegoat armstrong for the wrongs of a generation.
Not least because it will divert attention from all the very real problems elsewhere.

Why is Riis still in the sport, and allowed to keep his TdF title?

For 20 years cycling has scapegoated a few to keep the UCI machine intact. The whole idea of scapegoating , with massive penalties for some and derisory ones for others must be dismantled

The only way forward is a sentencing body independent of UCI or local doping authorities who prosecute. That way cycling can start to get some credibiilty back.
Am, I don't think George is the last rat to leave the pirate ship Armstrong, seems you haven't found a way out yet.

Even poor Phil finally succumbed to the Kool-aid in the end.
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  #89  
Old 11-08-12, 02:17
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TheEnoculator TheEnoculator is offline
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Why would anybody feel sorry for Armstrong? Even he himself isn't sorry for what he did, and if you know Armstrong, he would never confess and beg for forgiveness. Besides, he brought this upon himself, and he's the prepetrator, not the victim. So why should anybody feel bad for him?

I say let the SOB burn!
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  #90  
Old 11-08-12, 08:41
mountainrman mountainrman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Maserati View Post
Am, I don't think George is the last rat to leave the pirate ship Armstrong, seems you haven't found a way out yet.

Even poor Phil finally succumbed to the Kool-aid in the end.
Can you read?

Nowhere have I supported Armstrong either by implication or fact.
I am just not one of the clinics braindead lynch mob - I am interested in the future of cycling not the enjoyment of the Deserved come uppance of Armstrong

There are wider implications for both justice and cycling, and kangaroo courts that play favourites with no sentence at all for people they like, and vilifying and scapegoating those who are not liked is just more of the same for cycling - it is part of the reason why the sport wide problem has never been tackled.

What part of "hincapie was a whole career doper who contributed as much as anyone else to the doping conspiracy that took 7 tdf titles, so deserves the same treatment as the other participants" do you not understand? Were this a real legal process instead of a mockery his " nazi defence" of I was not the boss, so am not really to blame would be laughed out of court and would be met with the same sentence for conspiracy.

Cycling has learned nothing, other than how to scapegoat a few (again) and say it is clean ( again) . Till the next time that is.

Last edited by mountainrman; 11-08-12 at 09:38.
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