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  #8561  
Old 11-12-12, 12:22
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JimmyFingers JimmyFingers is offline
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Originally Posted by Susan Westemeyer View Post
Jimmy and Hog, take your quibble to PMs. Stay on topic and stop with the personal stuff.

Yes, you may take this as an official warning.

Susan
Hog you miss this?
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  #8562  
Old 11-12-12, 12:28
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Mrs John Murphy Mrs John Murphy is offline
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Originally Posted by JimmyFingers View Post
I don't believe I'm assuming, I'm just looking at likelihoods and logical choices. Given that it is monitored and riders have been caught there as a result, if you were doping you'd avoid places like that like the plague, both for the possibly of being caught and the speculation it opens you up to.

There is a possibility you'd go for the double bluff like you suggest, be brazen and assume the monitoring has tailed off, but it would be a high risk strategy. And if you avoid detection you still open yourself up to suspicion.
You are assuming and speculating. You are connecting the dots to prove a point you want to see proved. But because you are doing it and because it achieves the result you desire (suggests Sky are clean) - it is therefore 'logical analysis'.

You can do this all you like, but don't dress yourself up as some how superior to those who do the same to criticise Sky.
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  #8563  
Old 11-12-12, 12:35
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Originally Posted by Mrs John Murphy View Post
You are assuming and speculating. You are connecting the dots to prove a point you want to see proved. But because you are doing it and because it achieves the result you desire (suggests Sky are clean) - it is therefore 'logical analysis'.

You can do this all you like, but don't dress yourself up as some how superior to those who do the same to criticise Sky.
The difference is I'm not presenting it as definitive fact, I'm not presenting it as hard evidence. It is speculation and I'd like to think it's logical.

And don't thrust motives on to me that suit your 'narrative'.
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  #8564  
Old 11-12-12, 12:38
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Mrs John Murphy Mrs John Murphy is offline
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Originally Posted by JimmyFingers View Post
The difference is I'm not presenting it as definitive fact, I'm not presenting it as hard evidence. It is speculation and I'd like to think it's logical.

And don't thrust motives on to me that suit your 'narrative'.
The very things you condemn others for doing.
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  #8565  
Old 11-12-12, 12:42
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JimmyFingers JimmyFingers is offline
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Originally Posted by Mrs John Murphy View Post
The very things you condemn others for doing.
Show me where I condemn someone for speculating? I don't, I condemn them for speculating but dressing it up as hard evidence.

All we have here is speculation, we have no proof and we have a paucity of quantitative data to draw upon. There's tennuous circumstancial evidence but little else. You join the dots your way, I'll do it mine, we'll probably arrive at different conclusions and then we debate them.
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  #8566  
Old 11-12-12, 12:42
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Mellow Velo Mellow Velo is offline
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Originally Posted by thehog View Post
Link the quote. Come on. We're waiting. Shows us.

Come on Jimmy. We're waiting. Quote up!
I'm not going to trawl through this discourse you two have been having, but is it a link to Ferrari saying, no no, don't go to Teide?
If so, the OP on this thread provides a "loose" translation:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=18784

Quote:
* Ferrari asks Bertagnolli which blood bags he used, Contador might have used bags in PVC, Bertagnolli has been using polypropylene bags which are not detectable, so he's not in trouble

* some stuff about blood transfusions, no details

* riders who want to dope can't go to Teide anymore because the place is "bruciata" - monitored and known by the antidoping authorities

* Ferrari speculates someone in the lab might have spiked Contador's blood with clenbuterol

* Bertagnolli asks if Contador might have used Actovegin, but Ferrari says no; "Actovegin is made of calf's blood, normally they don't use clen for that"
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  #8567  
Old 11-12-12, 12:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellow Velo View Post
I'm not going to trawl through this discourse you two have been having, but is it a link to Ferrari saying, no no, don't go to Teide?
If so, the OP on this thread provides a "loose" translation:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=18784
Thank-you. And yes it is a poor translation. Not bad just not in context.

Which becomes a problem with 3rd hand sources.

As i mentioned above Ferrari used the word "scorched" meaning "overused".

It wasn't a warning but more "be selective" of when go and who with. Which makes perfect sense.

Ferrari's not stupid. That's why he uses Stefano for communication and he also the outward communicator now that Michele knows he's being tapped.

I would also add that Ferrari states his innocence. He says he's never doped cyclists and is very aware the Italian authorities are recording him.

All I'd say is be very careful in quoting him. It's like quoting Madoff or Richard Fuld that all is well in the banking industry circa 2008.

I'd prefer if more reputable sources were used.

If Ferrari is all we've got then we'll go with it and take it with a grain of salt.


Back to Sky; it was Yates who recommended Tererife because Armstrong went there. That's a worry.

Last edited by thehog; 11-12-12 at 12:55.
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  #8568  
Old 11-12-12, 13:30
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Originally Posted by thehog View Post

As i mentioned above Ferrari used the word "scorched" meaning "overused".

It wasn't a warning but more "be selective" of when go and who with. Which makes perfect sense
Source? Or is if that your own translation and interpretation? Is scorched a common word in Italian for 'over-used'? Scorched to me says destroyed, unusable i.e. scorched earth.

You ask for quotes and sources and yet provide none, but do go with a fairly fanciful interpretation.

Last edited by JimmyFingers; 11-12-12 at 13:36.
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  #8569  
Old 11-12-12, 13:45
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Mellow Velo Mellow Velo is offline
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I can see any mention of Tenerife in this general translation/appraisal of LB's testimony, but it does come up with Ferrari condemning anyone daft enough to use epo, in 2010:

http://thegaviafiles.tumblr.com/post...ferraris-world

Quote:
Ferrari considers EPO use to be suicidal. You’ll get caught, he says. It’s for suicidal crazies, he says.
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  #8570  
Old 11-12-12, 13:48
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Originally Posted by JimmyFingers View Post
Source? Or is if that your own translation and interpretation? Is scorched a common word in Italian for 'over-used'? Scorched to me says destroyed, unusable i.e. scorched earth.

You ask for quotes and sources and yet provide none, but do go with a fairly fanciful interpretation.
But you're using English context not Italian.

Languages do not directly translate into one another.

You can't use context as interchangeable meanings. You have to know the language.

The Italian language is renound for "over emphasis". The real meaning of the word would be "burnt" in English.

But you have to read everything Ferrari was saying. It wasn't "don't go to Tenerife". It was more "be careful - the land is burnt". It's a romantic language not cockney

Besides it was you who was quoting the 3rd-4th hand Ferrari report and stating it confirmed Sky's "innocence".

I look forward to the Sky PR machine using Ferrari in there next round of advertisements! Lol!

Ferrari is an unreliable source. If I were you I avoid using him as the beacon Sky's innocence. Especially when you don't have a link to what he actually said.

Give it a rest.

So back to Yates. Did you know he recommend Tenerife to Wiggins based on Armstrong's experience?
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