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  #8791  
Old 11-15-12, 08:11
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Avoriaz Avoriaz is offline
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Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
I'll go with still not convinced. And going as soft on Lance as he possibly can.
And yet harder than most
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  #8792  
Old 11-15-12, 09:28
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Stay on topic please.

Susan
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  #8793  
Old 11-15-12, 10:18
RownhamHill RownhamHill is offline
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Originally Posted by Libertine Seguros View Post
I think 'coward' is a bit unfair though for a rider in a position like that. What does a rider like Wiggins stand to gain from shouting down Astana at that point? He's a comparative no-name, at least in road cycling, and he's on a team which are in their first year as a pro team, trying to hold on to an unexpected good GC place. Against him he has the best rider on the planet (who's probably juiced), and the most famous rider on the planet (who's probably juiced), both on the strongest and most powerful team to take on the Tour in years (probably even stronger than 2012 Sky). He's watching what's happening within that very team as a guy is being carefully ostracized and character assassinated in the press for having the temerity to ride the Tour de France to try to win, not even attacking Armstrong himself per se. Wiggins may well have suspected Armstrong was pilled up, but it is most clearly in his own interests to keep his mouth shut, at least while Lance is active; Lance's media presence at that point is far too powerful. And of course, if he does call Lance out, he will be forever answering questions about Lance from there to eternity rather than being allowed to concentrate on his own race.

A guy like David Moncoutié has the reputation for racing clean throughout a career spanning more than a decade. His reputation was long established by that point, but he wasn't tearing down Astana, or calling out Valverde and Mosquera at the Vuelta. Why? Because David Moncoutié isn't a crusader or a martyr; he's simply a cyclist who most people are happy to believe was clean.

I don't think Moncoutié is a coward for not calling people out. After all, if he sat with the rest of the Cofidis team 10 years ago and endured constant mockery about not joining in, as has been attested by Gaumont and Millar, then fair play to the guy. But similarly, Wiggins isn't a coward for not calling Armstrong out in 2009 - it simply would have been a poor move for him at the time.

I think Wiggins has said and done plenty of things that are worth criticism, but it would take a man more heroic and especially more foolish than most to have called out Astana at the 2009 Tour.
This is the post I would like to have written, if I hadn't been afraid it would bring down a torrent of abuse as a fanboy and doping apologist: Balanced, rational, based on both an understanding of the specific context of the 2009 tour, and more generally a passing familiarity with the world as it is, rather than how one might want it to be.

Are you sure you're posting in the right forum?

EDIT: Oh yeah, also it's the post I would like to have written had I been capable of writing it as well!
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  #8794  
Old 11-15-12, 10:21
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Tim_sleepless Tim_sleepless is offline
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Originally Posted by Dr. Maserati View Post
He was leaving hospital (inside a car), he was injured (some broken ribs) -
I didnt realize that such exposure and terrible injuries meant he was unable to smile or wave at the people.

I wonder why Sky felt the need to issue an apology the next day - maybe they did not realize just how sore he really was.
The real question is who is behind the Wiggins (and maybe Sutton) crash, and why?

Was it so that there's a credible reason for why Wiggins doesn't do as well next year if they have to cut back his program due to increased surveliance?

Or is it so that he can be out of the public eye while his program is racheted up (with possible reason for TUE's for cortisoids etc)..

Or was it a warning, in case he was getting uncomfortable with the doping?

How did Wiggins' wife get to the scence so fast, unless she knew it was going to happen?

Notice that the crash was caused by a van. What do installers of Sky Satellite systems drive .... vans.


Join the dots.
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  #8795  
Old 11-15-12, 10:47
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Originally Posted by Tim_sleepless View Post

Join the dots.
Too busy joining your troll posts.
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  #8796  
Old 11-15-12, 10:52
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JimmyFingers JimmyFingers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RownhamHill View Post
This is the post I would like to have written, if I hadn't been afraid it would bring down a torrent of abuse as a fanboy and doping apologist: Balanced, rational, based on both an understanding of the specific context of the 2009 tour, and more generally a passing familiarity with the world as it is, rather than how one might want it to be.

Are you sure you're posting in the right forum?

EDIT: Oh yeah, also it's the post I would like to have written had I been capable of writing it as well!
This. People spout off about omerta within truely empathising what it is like to be in a situation like that. Libertine's post gets close to the truth and rationale behind the choices a pro-rider has to make. In any organisation, be it a sport of business, it takes tremendous courage and risk to blow the whistle on more senior and established members who you know are doing wrong.

I am not sure why it was supposed to be Wiggins job to call out Lance in 2009, there were another 170+ riders in the race.

And he was just a rider. He may, as Libertine sugggested, suspect that Lance was juiced. His team principal would have been certain. Vaughters could have taken a stand then, but he didn't. And why? Because he knew a lone voice would have done more harm than good, and made him another sacrificial lamb like Simeoni, Bassons, Betsy Andreu and Landis. It took the combined testimony of 11 witnesses and a huge mass of evidence to take Armstrong down.

I'm not sure why that responsibility has been shifted to Wiggins. He is the Le Patron now but certainly wasn't in 2009, he would have been crucified if he spoke up.

Omerta isn't broken by the riders, it's broken by the management and leaders of the organisation: you need to feel you can speak up, be believed and action be taken. You need to know you can keep your livelihood and provide for your family. Given the pervasive power of the Armstrong brand, and the complicit nature of the UCI leadership, it would have been suicide.
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  #8797  
Old 11-15-12, 11:01
Grandillusion Grandillusion is offline
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Originally Posted by Avoriaz View Post
And yet harder than most
Which doesn't mean much really. Armstrong is history, the appropriate anger is supposed to be directed elsewhere now, but isn't being.

Just been over to Professional Road Racing for a while...it's great! Everyone's so psyched about their favourites, and barely able to contain their anticipation for next year's big races. Nobody gives a hoot about the doping stuff (I know they're not allowed to discuss it), and you can tell they don't even want to think about it.

Maybe they're right, and the annoying outside world should just leave 'em all alone. They must loathe Travis Tygart's guts! Probably do think Greg LeMond is a bitter fat whiner? Walsh & Kimmage are only interested in their career advancement?

A very happy parallel universe, and maybe it's better that way?
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  #8798  
Old 11-15-12, 11:21
coinneach coinneach is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim_sleepless View Post
The real question is who is behind the Wiggins (and maybe Sutton) crash, and why?

Was it so that there's a credible reason for why Wiggins doesn't do as well next year if they have to cut back his program due to increased surveliance?

Or is it so that he can be out of the public eye while his program is racheted up (with possible reason for TUE's for cortisoids etc)..

Or was it a warning, in case he was getting uncomfortable with the doping?

How did Wiggins' wife get to the scence so fast, unless she knew it was going to happen?

Notice that the crash was caused by a van. What do installers of Sky Satellite systems drive .... vans.


Join the dots.
It was a white Astra, though I believe one or two Sky employee's wives drive them too
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  #8799  
Old 11-15-12, 11:32
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Tim_sleepless Tim_sleepless is offline
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Originally Posted by coinneach View Post
It was a white Astra, though I believe one or two Sky employee's wives drive them too


White Astra Envoy Van... .... don't try and throw us off the scent..!

Plus it was driven by someone called "Cath Burrows"... which is suspiciously similar to "Cath Wiggins"
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  #8800  
Old 11-15-12, 11:55
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MartinGT MartinGT is offline
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Its been a few days (well, over a week) since I have been on here.

Has anyone else signed this no doping thing from Sky? Mostly interested in the riders. It all seems to have gone very quiet on that front.

All that I know is Froome and Porte have signed it?

Do they think we are not bothered that the dust is settling? Because its not!
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