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  #5091  
Old 11-16-12, 11:57
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rhubroma rhubroma is offline
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Unprecedented! I'm not even going to get into the chorus of "the economy is Bushs fault", but are you going to sit there and tell me that after 9/11 he didn't enjoy unprecedented insulation from all quarters (with the exception of the hard left; and by that I don't mean Democrats or boutique liberals) right up until the very last year of his term. Virtually no one was talking about the economy until it came home on them--that includes Democrats as much as R's.

Really? I don't think it's the case that Obama enjoys unprecedented insulation.

As to who I was talking about, you moan and kvetch about national debt, but debt is not the problem that this or any other country faces in the long term. Debt is a fiction for managers and sideline spectators who like to think that they have political investment. It's also a non-fiction for the generations behind me (and you) but in most places other than the US, they still have the conceptual horizon to argue that "debt" is not their primary obstacle.

What I find most striking is that you consistently blame Obama rather than the people of the US for the situation the country is in. If it's a democracy, why then is the economy not democratic? You claim to have all the answers, the gumption and the moxie that the "leader" lacks and yet if you have those qualities, why don't others? In politics and without? And why is it then, that the economy is in the situation it's in. Poor decision making on the part of the junior senator from Chicago.

Right Scott.
Ah, me thinks you are on to something here. We should stop calling it debt and refer to it as "fiscal nothingness," or how about just "capital hole?"

In the end it all boils down to an erroneous and ideologically motivated concept regarding the relationship between currency and social capital, no?

As per why the economy isn't democratic: just ask the Masters of the Universe at Ugland House, but you certainly won't get an honest answer.

So I pose the same question as before: what are we to do when capital has transformed democracy under the leadership of so-called centrist politics, into the most radical form of extremism?
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  #5092  
Old 11-16-12, 13:15
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Glenn_Wilson Glenn_Wilson is offline
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Giving very wealthy people more money to invest off shore does not grow our economy one tiny little bit. Bet on it.
Why should the money people take the extra that you want to give them and invest it anywhere except off shore where there is no risk and a very high return?
So, you can say, why not give them tax breaks so they can "afford" to invest it here, and I can say why let them keep it in the first place? Make them invest it here.
Yes they should have some type of way to force them to invest it here in the USA. Instead there is a boat load of loopholes tax shelters that they stick it in.

Not all do that but a large percentage do.

If you go for raising taxes then there has to be some budget cuts. The Defense is the most likely place because it is way out of whack.

Why doesn't anyone here on the left want to admit that something strange was happening during the first weeks of this Bengazi terrorist attack? It was weird when you rewind it and see how there was a message being made to not call it a terrorist attack. Why is that? I would not go so far to say that there is any massive cover-up. But from what has been released the station chief for the CIA and the Embassy security detail had reason to believe they would be attacked.

Then again like I said before in a previous post. Some of the people posting on here were all happy to say the attack was because of a video released by a Jew. So I reckon that you guys are not going to waver from that anyway.

Anyone catch the settlement on the BP Horizon disaster? They are guilty on 11 felony counts. Pay out another 4.? something billions. There are 3 other companies that should be settle but I guess we either have to wait or they are going to fight it. The gentlemen who were BP company directs on-board the Horizon were charged directly.
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  #5093  
Old 11-16-12, 14:07
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I'm all for it! How about we start with this obscenity, our 'defense' budget?

Uh oh... Scrap that. Be afraid (and leave your cheque on the table on the way out. For freedom.)

Russia’s Stealth Fighter Could Match U.S. Jets, Analyst Says

Quote:
The T-50 could keep flying and fighting long after the F-22 and F-35 have run out of gas.
Quote:
Moreover, the T-50 will dodge certain radars better than others, according to Kopp — and U.S. sensors are among the worst at detecting the T-50′s unique shape
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The T-50 could make up for its lateness with impressive performance that in some ways exceeds even the F-22′s vaunted capabilities
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In other words: Watch out, America! You’re now only one of three countries with a truly radar-evading warplane in the air.
And moar horsez and bayonetez, so we can win naval battles.
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  #5094  
Old 11-16-12, 14:17
aphronesis aphronesis is offline
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Originally Posted by Bala Verde View Post
Uh oh... Scrap that. Be afraid (and leave your cheque on the table on the way out. For freedom.)

Russia’s Stealth Fighter Could Match U.S. Jets, Analyst Says





And moar horsez and bayonetez, so we can win naval battles.
Yeah, cause the last aerial attack on the US was state of the art. Defense budget definitely money well spent.

Shockingly little learned from the lesson of Viet Nam. Other than the fact that it kept the members and supporters of the Bush cabinet from acting out long range and sustained aggression for the better part of three decades

Last edited by aphronesis; 11-16-12 at 14:32.
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  #5095  
Old 11-16-12, 14:29
aphronesis aphronesis is offline
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Originally Posted by rhubroma View Post
Ah, me thinks you are on to something here. We should stop calling it debt and refer to it as "fiscal nothingness," or how about just "capital hole?"

In the end it all boils down to an erroneous and ideologically motivated concept regarding the relationship between currency and social capital, no?

As per why the economy isn't democratic: just ask the Masters of the Universe at Ugland House, but you certainly won't get an honest answer.

So I pose the same question as before: what are we to do when capital has transformed democracy under the leadership of so-called centrist politics, into the most radical form of extremism?
Seems to. As you may know there's a growing body--or trend--of literature on debt in the past couple of years making some sort of variation on that argument. Of course most of what's said could already be teased out or argued through Genealogy of Morals and Bataille's responses to that. So the question becomes how ingrained or embedded in individuals (and potential collectives) is that social capital? At what point does the overlapping or overcoding of the relationship become apparent to people as a fiction that's no longer operative, and--given the material wealth of the world--no longer necessary? No time soon it's likely. And it won't be an epiphany or apophantic for most, but an imperceptible transition from one fish tank to the next.

So in that regard, and to your question, it may be that we're only now entering the beginning of a long neo-medievalism in which we are subsumed entirely beneath capital. This is how it seemed already back around 2003 when arguments for postmodernism began to fully collapse, (if it wasn't already obvious much earlier--to the autonomists for example). Others (sometimes the same) argue that we're back at the beginning of the 17th century and undergoing a radical new acceleration and cordoning off of social possibilities.I don't have an answer to that even though I'm aware of all the grassroots proposals. It seems in part that one component of anything that's done has to consist of a giving of time, means, and activity--because all have been rendered otherwise meaningless and disposable in the western world (despite all claims to the contrary) and a continuous demand for institutional reform and dismantling at myriad levels. Maybe more than that, a demand that institutions (of virtually any sort) must cease to be autonomous and instead be thoroughly publicly accountable. Because there's daily, if not hourly, evidence that most are corrupt at every level.

Last edited by aphronesis; 11-16-12 at 14:39.
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  #5096  
Old 11-16-12, 14:41
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Scott SoCal Scott SoCal is offline
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Originally Posted by aphronesis View Post
Unprecedented! I'm not even going to get into the chorus of "the economy is Bushs fault", but are you going to sit there and tell me that after 9/11 he didn't enjoy unprecedented insulation from all quarters (with the exception of the hard left; and by that I don't mean Democrats or boutique liberals) right up until the very last year of his term. Virtually no one was talking about the economy until it came home on them--that includes Democrats as much as R's.

Really? I don't think it's the case that Obama enjoys unprecedented insulation.

As to who I was talking about, you moan and kvetch about national debt, but debt is not the problem that the US or any other country faces in the long term. Debt is a fiction for managers and sideline spectators who like to think that they have political investment. It's also a non-fiction for the generations behind me (and you) but in most places other than the US, they still have the conceptual horizon to argue that "debt" is not their primary obstacle.

What I find most striking is that you consistently blame Obama rather than the people of the US for the situation the country is in. If it's a democracy, why then is the economy not democratic? You claim to have all the answers, the gumption and the moxie that the "leader" lacks and yet if you have those qualities, why don't others? In politics and without? And why is it then, that the economy is in the situation it's in. Poor decision making on the part of the junior senator from Chicago.

Right Scott.
Reagan, HW Bush and Clinton did not enjoy the same media support that Obama does. Bush absolutely didn't except for perhaps a time after 9/11. By and large, the media has fawned over Obama. I don't really know how it could be viewed much different, particularly during the run ups to the last two elections. Of course, it's my perception, but that's hardly a unique view.

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As to who I was talking about, you moan and kvetch about national debt, but debt is not the problem that the US or any other country faces in the long term. Debt is a fiction for managers and sideline spectators who like to think that they have political investment. It's also a non-fiction for the generations behind me (and you) but in most places other than the US, they still have the conceptual horizon to argue that "debt" is not their primary obstacle.
Okay. Debt will become less of a fictional concept to you when those that underwrite the govts ability to borrow become less willing.

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What I find most striking is that you consistently blame Obama rather than the people of the US for the situation the country is in. If it's a democracy, why then is the economy not democratic?
It's kinda of like blaming company workers for the failure of leadership from a CEO and that company crashing. It's an oversimplification to be sure but what you point out is why I'm so surprised at the elections outcome. It's pretty obvious that economic growth is not on Obama's radar. Personally, I don't get it as growth is the engine that drives Obama's ability to raise revenue, which gives him the ability to implement his agenda with a helluva lot less grief from the loyal opposition.

I've said it before, it's as if economic growth isn't even being discussed. Obama sets the tone, Obama gets the blame.

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You claim to have all the answers, the gumption and the moxie that the "leader" lacks and yet if you have those qualities, why don't others? In politics and without? And why is it then, that the economy is in the situation it's in. Poor decision making on the part of the junior senator from Chicago.
I'm confident I've never claimed to have all the answers. I do know what's going on in the small business community. I guarantee you I know more about it than our President does. And I find that pretty sad.
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  #5097  
Old 11-16-12, 14:47
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Friends, I am distraught. I have been banned from Mitt Romney's FB page.

All I did was comment on the astonishing bloodthirstiness being expressed there with regard to Israel. They were baying like a pack of rabid dogs for Bibi Netanyahu to bomb Gaza back to the stone age and kill, kill, kill, which I found pretty appalling for a bunch of supposed Christians, and said so. So much for free speech.
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  #5098  
Old 11-16-12, 14:54
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Friends, I am distraught. I have been banned from Mitt Romney's FB page.

All I did was comment on the astonishing bloodthirstiness being expressed there with regard to Israel. They were baying like a pack of rabid dogs for Bibi Netanyahu to bomb Gaza back to the stone age and kill, kill, kill, which I found pretty appalling for a bunch of supposed Christians, and said so. So much for free speech.
Nuke 'em. It's the Republican way.
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  #5099  
Old 11-16-12, 14:55
aphronesis aphronesis is offline
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Reagan, HW Bush and Clinton did not enjoy the same media support that Obama does. Bush absolutely didn't except for perhaps a time after 9/11. By and large, the media has fawned over Obama. I don't really know how it could be viewed much different, particularly during the run ups to the last two elections. Of course, it's my perception, but that's hardly a unique view.



Okay. Debt will become less of a fictional concept to you when those that underwrite the govts ability to borrow become less willing.



It's kinda of like blaming company workers for the failure of leadership from a CEO and that company crashing. It's an oversimplification to be sure but what you point out is why I'm so surprised at the elections outcome. It's pretty obvious that economic growth is not on Obama's radar. Personally, I don't get it as growth is the engine that drives Obama's ability to raise revenue, which gives him the ability to implement his agenda with a helluva lot less grief from the loyal opposition.

I've said it before, it's as if economic growth isn't even being discussed. Obama sets the tone, Obama gets the blame.



I'm confident I've never claimed to have all the answers. I do know what's going on in the small business community. I guarantee you I know more about it than our President does. And I find that pretty sad.
How so? Not to be selfish for once, but it won't affect me in the least when people cease to underwrite US debt. Not any more or less than any other national policies of the US have impacted my life.

At the level of society it will consist in various sets of inequalities being exchanged for others. Debt will be the fictional mechanism, justification and rationalization by which that substitution--and all attendant gains and sufferings--is enacted and tolerated.

No, it's like blaming the citizens of a country for investing in the outmoded and farcical concept of "leadership" when most couldn't be bothered to stipulate how they wanted to be led other than to be left alone to spiral into media generated ignorance and unabated consumption with no regard for the detritus or fallout of their activities.

To take one example, it didn't take a PhD in economics to know that the housing bubble was rigged and that a crash was coming. Anymore than it took a PhD in economics to know that Cal utilities were being gamed. None the less, none of their heads wanted to hear that, they just kept on grinding numbers like you often seem to do--and went right on being befuddled by the outcomes of their spread sheets.

Bush got a full pass from the media from 9/11 until 2007. The US media stopped writing about politics in any meaningful sense.

Here's a distinction: you keep hammering on about "growth," yet there's a growing body of literature that says we've reached a saturation point and "growth" in your sense and that of most bone literal and myopic economists is no longer achievable in the modern sense. Won't work at the global level. Think of it as being somewhat analogous to the moment when mercantilism as such was no longer tenable. It might be that Obama has read or had summarized for him that set of arguments and conclusions. So maybe it's not that he doesn't care, but that he doesn't buy that old chestnut. That he knows things won't keep working that way.

Obama doesn't set the tone. Myriad players and factors set the "tone." That's why I find it mostly ineffectual that you're content to sit back and point your finger at him rather than do the heavy lifting of thinking about the global economy as it now exists for us.

Last edited by aphronesis; 11-16-12 at 15:09.
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  #5100  
Old 11-16-12, 15:00
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Yeah, cause the last aerial attack on the US was state of the art. Defense budget definitely money well spent.

Shockingly little learned from the lesson of Viet Nam. Other than the fact that it kept the members and supporters of the Bush cabinet from acting out long range and sustained aggression for the better part of three decades

Ah yes. You know the White House made a deal with defense contractors during the run up to the election not to announce required lay off notices to employes due to looming sequestration, right?

Defense is certainly govt spending, just not the right kind I guess. Industrial military complex vs govt sponsored welfare state. Is that how you see it?
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