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  #11  
Old 11-16-12, 22:45
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Originally Posted by lean,mean,&green View Post
good article. hoberman has a pretty good understanding of the problem but he seems surprisingly clueless about potential solutions.
Good to see someone finally agrees with me that the solution starts with the riders
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  #12  
Old 11-16-12, 23:26
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Originally Posted by pleyser View Post
I came across an insightful article over at Velonews (who knew?)...

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/...-doping_265230

The article goes way beyond Armstrong in its scope, though the university professor didn't have to go far afield to find appropriate subject matter.
I stopped reading when I reached this sentence :
some privacy group in France lobbied the government and they stripped the names out of this thing.”

I figured I couldn't take seriously somebody who was not even aware that the form in which the data, with the name of the dopers, were presented in the old version of that website was in violation of French law.

The website, however, refers the readers to l'arriviste's website (if I amnot mistaken) containing much of the same info.

Anyway, if that profesor published in a US website the info he saved from the French website, there is nothing the CNIL (centre national informatique et liberté) could do about it, as far as I know.

Last edited by Le breton; 11-16-12 at 23:28.
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  #13  
Old 11-16-12, 23:32
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Originally Posted by Le breton View Post
I stopped reading when I reached this sentence :
some privacy group in France lobbied the government and they stripped the names out of this thing.”

I figured I couldn't take seriously somebody who was not even aware that the form in which the data, with the name of the dopers, were presented in the old version of that website was in violation of French law.

The website, however, refers the readers to l'arriviste's website (if I amnot mistaken) containing much of the same info.

Anyway, if that profesor published in a US website the info he saved from the French website, there is nothing the CNIL (centre national informatique et liberté) could do about it, as far as I know.
I did struggle with the whole "the data is no longer available nor sourced", when quite clearly the website exists and is sourced. ...
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  #14  
Old 11-17-12, 09:40
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I did struggle with the whole "the data is no longer available nor sourced", when quite clearly the website exists and is sourced. ...
A few years back, if I remember correctly, that website contained information that wasn't "official", allegations, suspicions, etc.
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  #15  
Old 11-17-12, 15:58
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I did struggle with the whole "the data is no longer available nor sourced", when quite clearly the website exists and is sourced. ...
Virtually EVERYTHING that was on the web can be found. I have gone back many times to see how the FFF site changed over time. Very interesting.

Dave.
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  #16  
Old 11-17-12, 17:07
Grandillusion Grandillusion is offline
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Wood for the trees, boys. Instead of trying to undermine his academic credibility, why don't you read page 4 again, then flick over to the Professional Cycling part of the forum, specifically the Tour de France 2013 predictions.

Interesting. Might be possible to make some links there.
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  #17  
Old 11-17-12, 17:53
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Originally Posted by Le breton View Post
I stopped reading when I reached this sentence :
some privacy group in France lobbied the government and they stripped the names out of this thing.”

I figured I couldn't take seriously somebody who was not even aware that the form in which the data, with the name of the dopers, were presented in the old version of that website was in violation of French law.

The website, however, refers the readers to l'arriviste's website (if I amnot mistaken) containing much of the same info.

Anyway, if that profesor published in a US website the info he saved from the French website, there is nothing the CNIL (centre national informatique et liberté) could do about it, as far as I know.
To be fair to Dr Hoberman, he contacted me this week prior to the interview being published so it seems possible that he had not checked the excellent cyclisme-dopage.com again until very recently.

Cyclisme-dopage.com's original, complete list was both accurate and scrupulously researched - I also have contact with its owner from time to time and have learned of the work done to produce it, as well as benefited from it in a limited way - but it did not quote the sources (the majority of which were offline in those days) and its overall tone of mild indignation seems to have irked the complainants, for it should be noted that certain people made complaints.

What happened, as the website relates today and which is understandably not detailed in the interview with Dr Hoberman, is that the owner and the authority (a public interest authority capable of taking legal action, not just 'some rights group') came to an agreement in which the list could remain without names and so it does today. Meanwhile the owner has moved the website further into the editorial side. The site still makes for essential reading even without the names.

Last edited by L'arriviste; 11-17-12 at 17:58.
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  #18  
Old 11-17-12, 23:12
Le breton Le breton is offline
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Originally Posted by L'arriviste View Post
To be fair to Dr Hoberman, he contacted me this week prior to the interview being published so it seems possible that he had not checked the excellent cyclisme-dopage.com again until very recently.

Cyclisme-dopage.com's original, complete list was both accurate and scrupulously researched - I also have contact with its owner from time to time and have learned of the work done to produce it, as well as benefited from it in a limited way - but it did not quote the sources (the majority of which were offline in those days) and its overall tone of mild indignation seems to have irked the complainants, for it should be noted that certain people made complaints.

What happened, as the website relates today and which is understandably not detailed in the interview with Dr Hoberman, is that the owner and the authority (a public interest authority capable of taking legal action, not just 'some rights group') came to an agreement in which the list could remain without names and so it does today. Meanwhile the owner has moved the website further into the editorial side. The site still makes for essential reading even without the names.
Thanks L'arriviste for your post.

So, do you think it's worth reading Hoberman's paper?
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  #19  
Old 11-18-12, 12:51
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Originally Posted by coinneach View Post
Good article.....I also think it explains a lot of the misunderstandings on the Clinic.
I'm British, and the national attitude towards doping in sport no doubt affects my values. We've lived with "failure" at cycling for generations, apart from Olympics over the last 12 years. I simply cannot believe any of the Olympic (cycling) success is doping related, though I did have suspicions about the male athletics sprinters and a female javelin thrower for a while 20-30 years ago.
I cannot for example, believe that a sport drug cheat would be elected in this country (although our PM, like many others, obviously experimented with drugs during adolescence).
If Sky was found to be involved in doping, so much would unravel that it simply is beyond my comprehension. I cannot believe it, though if evidence came out, I'd like to think I was open to re-evaluate. We'd rather a valiant loser than a doped winner every time.
But posters from the USA & Australia seem just not to understand the Brits, and view our nationalist faith as amusing or pitiable. I kinda admire the Aussie in your face way of directness, but have more of a problem with American dominance & what I perceive as arrogance.
I think if we spent a bit more time being honest about our mindsets, we might understand each other better?
I'm going to read the article again!
You gave hon. Knighthood to a doping doc from east germany...row, row row your boat, gentle down the stream.
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  #20  
Old 11-18-12, 14:00
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Originally Posted by Zam_Olyas View Post
You gave hon. Knighthood to a doping doc from east germany...row, row row your boat, gentle down the stream.
Care to enlighten me?

I should also confess to a suspicion about one of our current popular olympic champions, heck, even I like him, but he went to train in the USA leading up to the games, and in my mind, that + improved performance makes him suspicious.
(I guess to me USA and athletics is like Tenerife and cyclists! I must get rid of these prejudices!!)
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