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  #21  
Old 11-17-12, 16:27
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Capablanca and me Capablanca and me is offline
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Originally Posted by babastooey View Post
I love the old documentaries. I have a neat little DVD collection of the following:

A Sunday in Hell
Stars and Watercarriers
The Impossible Hour
Le Course en Tete
The Greatest Show on Earth

Are there any others from this era? I would like to see movies like this about Bernard Hinault.
maybe this: Jacques Anquetil The Man, Mystery, Legend

part1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3sOezcnHoU

or this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0ewL...eature=related

and the cyclingtorrents.nl have some great movies
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  #22  
Old 11-17-12, 16:33
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Originally Posted by Ryo Hazuki View Post
real reason is shorter and less difficult stages and most of all globalisation of the sport
absolut agree, GTs need very long, and very hard stages, the Giro 2011 have some
those stage genereate the really gaps, the minutes, and not the seconds
a stage under 130km is a TTT or TT for the oldies

Last edited by Capablanca and me; 11-17-12 at 16:34. Reason: spelling
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  #23  
Old 11-17-12, 16:51
Echoes Echoes is online now
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There's a far greater strength in depth these days. Now you have Americans, Australians, Eastern Europeans, Colombians, Brits, Scandanavians etc..
Back in Merckx's day, even Hinault's, they were very rare. Even Germans were fairly rare.
I've already made a thread to debunk this.

Americans: Jonathan Boyer, Tom Sneddon, Mike Neel raced against Merckx (OK the only nation which really was weak back then)

Australians: Danny Clark, Graeme Gilmore, Don Allan, Gary Clively, Tony Kelliher, Bob Whetters and so many more great trackies raced against Merckx, plus the excellent New-Zealander Bruce Biddle. And Clyde Sefton raced against De Vlaeminck, so did Phil Anderson.

Eastern Europe: OK so the best Eastern Euro of the time was Ruharsz Szukorwski (spelling probably wrong but well), amateur World Champion and Peace Race winner. He raced Paris-Nice twice against Merckx. He was a good rider but no more. Other Polish raced against Western Euros at the Tour of Luxembourg for instance. Never able to mix it up with the likes of Verbeeck or Maertens. Also some very good Easterners defected to the West like Horst Oldenburg (East German) or Jiri Daler. And of course Merckx mixed it up with Easterners in his amateur years.
Oh yeah and in cyclocross, Stybar had forerunners. Notably the mighty Milos Fisera!

Colombians: lol that's a great show of present-day ignorance since the best Colombian ever raced in that period. Martin Emilio Rodriguez better known as Cochise. A complete rider, unlike Herrera. And they even had a Flandrian rider: Giovanni Jimenez. Far better than Duque. And then the climber Rafael Nińo.

Brits: LOOOL. Michael Wright, Vin Denson, Barry Hoban, Hugh Porter, Colin Lewis, Leslie West, Bob Cary, Phil Edwards, Phil Corley, ...

Scandinavians: LOL !! Even better: Leif Mortensen, Ole Ritter, Gösta Pettersson, Thomas Pettersson, Sture Pettersson, Erik Pettersson, Knut Knudsen, ...

Germans: hmm the best ever again: Rudy Altig, Dietrich Thurau, Rolf Wolfshohl, Jurgen Tschan, Horst Oldenburg, Dieter Puschel, Sigi Renz, Albert Fritz, Winfried Peffgen, Karl-Heinz Kunde, well there were too many of them to mention, I'm fed up now. More to come if need be.
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  #24  
Old 11-17-12, 17:46
Parker Parker is offline
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Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
I've already made a thread to debunk this.

Americans: Jonathan Boyer, Tom Sneddon, Mike Neel raced against Merckx (OK the only nation which really was weak back then)

Australians: Danny Clark, Graeme Gilmore, Don Allan, Gary Clively, Tony Kelliher, Bob Whetters and so many more great trackies raced against Merckx, plus the excellent New-Zealander Bruce Biddle. And Clyde Sefton raced against De Vlaeminck, so did Phil Anderson.

Eastern Europe: OK so the best Eastern Euro of the time was Ruharsz Szukorwski (spelling probably wrong but well), amateur World Champion and Peace Race winner. He raced Paris-Nice twice against Merckx. He was a good rider but no more. Other Polish raced against Western Euros at the Tour of Luxembourg for instance. Never able to mix it up with the likes of Verbeeck or Maertens. Also some very good Easterners defected to the West like Horst Oldenburg (East German) or Jiri Daler. And of course Merckx mixed it up with Easterners in his amateur years.
Oh yeah and in cyclocross, Stybar had forerunners. Notably the mighty Milos Fisera!

Colombians: lol that's a great show of present-day ignorance since the best Colombian ever raced in that period. Martin Emilio Rodriguez better known as Cochise. A complete rider, unlike Herrera. And they even had a Flandrian rider: Giovanni Jimenez. Far better than Duque. And then the climber Rafael Nińo.

Brits: LOOOL. Michael Wright, Vin Denson, Barry Hoban, Hugh Porter, Colin Lewis, Leslie West, Bob Cary, Phil Edwards, Phil Corley, ...

Scandinavians: LOL !! Even better: Leif Mortensen, Ole Ritter, Gösta Pettersson, Thomas Pettersson, Sture Pettersson, Erik Pettersson, Knut Knudsen, ...

Germans: hmm the best ever again: Rudy Altig, Dietrich Thurau, Rolf Wolfshohl, Jurgen Tschan, Horst Oldenburg, Dieter Puschel, Sigi Renz, Albert Fritz, Winfried Peffgen, Karl-Heinz Kunde, well there were too many of them to mention, I'm fed up now. More to come if need be.
And of that whole long list hpow many actually won anything of any note? Altig, Pettersen, Hoban, Thurau and maybe Ritter

You managed to name three North Americans and one Eastern European from that whole period in all races - there have been more teams from those areas in modern races.

In Merckx's last winning Tour in 1974 there were 130 riders. Only six of them came from outside the 'big five' nations.

Nowadays a Brit and a Canadian have won Grand Tours and an Aussie and a Kazakh monuments in just this season.
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  #25  
Old 11-17-12, 17:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
I've already made a thread to debunk this.

Americans: Jonathan Boyer, Tom Sneddon, Mike Neel raced against Merckx (OK the only nation which really was weak back then)

Australians: Danny Clark, Graeme Gilmore, Don Allan, Gary Clively, Tony Kelliher, Bob Whetters and so many more great trackies raced against Merckx, plus the excellent New-Zealander Bruce Biddle. And Clyde Sefton raced against De Vlaeminck, so did Phil Anderson.

Eastern Europe: OK so the best Eastern Euro of the time was Ruharsz Szukorwski (spelling probably wrong but well), amateur World Champion and Peace Race winner. He raced Paris-Nice twice against Merckx. He was a good rider but no more. Other Polish raced against Western Euros at the Tour of Luxembourg for instance. Never able to mix it up with the likes of Verbeeck or Maertens. Also some very good Easterners defected to the West like Horst Oldenburg (East German) or Jiri Daler. And of course Merckx mixed it up with Easterners in his amateur years.
Oh yeah and in cyclocross, Stybar had forerunners. Notably the mighty Milos Fisera!

Colombians: lol that's a great show of present-day ignorance since the best Colombian ever raced in that period. Martin Emilio Rodriguez better known as Cochise. A complete rider, unlike Herrera. And they even had a Flandrian rider: Giovanni Jimenez. Far better than Duque. And then the climber Rafael Nińo.

Brits: LOOOL. Michael Wright, Vin Denson, Barry Hoban, Hugh Porter, Colin Lewis, Leslie West, Bob Cary, Phil Edwards, Phil Corley, ...

Scandinavians: LOL !! Even better: Leif Mortensen, Ole Ritter, Gösta Pettersson, Thomas Pettersson, Sture Pettersson, Erik Pettersson, Knut Knudsen, ...

Germans: hmm the best ever again: Rudy Altig, Dietrich Thurau, Rolf Wolfshohl, Jurgen Tschan, Horst Oldenburg, Dieter Puschel, Sigi Renz, Albert Fritz, Winfried Peffgen, Karl-Heinz Kunde, well there were too many of them to mention, I'm fed up now. More to come if need be.
the best colombian rider (cochise) came to europe well in his 30s. even then he was only allowed to work for gimondi except a few giro stages, which he won and trofeo barachin (duo itt with gimondi). there's a notirous intevriew with cochize where he said gimondi used him to literally pull himself up the climbs, by pushing his arms on him and launching himself everytime until chochise couldn't hold it anymore.

besides that's not even the point. the point of globalisaiton is that now there are way ebtter cyclists from all over the world. the brits of today are better than then, same with latin americans, north americans, scandinvaians, australians, germans etc etc
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  #26  
Old 11-17-12, 18:03
silverrocket silverrocket is offline
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1. Globalization isn't just a matter of nations that were not represented before now are, it is an increase in global cycling popularity which results in a much deeper overall talent pool. The overall level is much higher, so its more difficult to rise head and shoulders above the rest (a la Merckx).

2. Training/diet etc. was much more informal back then. This would lead to much more variation between riders, and the riders doing it "correctly" would see bigger gains. These days everybody knows about anaerobic thresholds, recovery, intervals (no, Sky didn't invent these!), bike fitting, etc. Knowledge has helped level the playing field.

3. Race radios.
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  #27  
Old 11-17-12, 18:04
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Originally Posted by silverrocket View Post
1. Globalization isn't just a matter of nations that were not represented before now are, it is an increase in global cycling popularity which results in a much deeper overall talent pool. The overall level is much higher, so its more difficult to rise head and shoulders above the rest (a la Merckx).

2. Training/diet etc. was much more informal back then. This would lead to much more variation between riders, and the riders doing it "correctly" would see bigger gains. These days everybody knows about anaerobic thresholds, recovery, intervals (no, Sky didn't invent these!), bike fitting, etc. Knowledge has helped level the playing field.

3. Race radios.
But is cycling more popular in Europe now then in the 70s?

And that doesn't account for the fact that the smallest time differences were all from before the 80s.

Merckx never won his Giri titles with 10+ minutes. In 1973 he won the Giro with a 7 minutes and 42 second difference on Felice Gimondi. That's the biggest margin he won with in the Giro.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...cation_winners
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Originally Posted by Ryo Hazuki View Post
horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato
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Goss will woop boonens candy ass in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week

Last edited by El Pistolero; 11-17-12 at 18:09.
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  #28  
Old 11-18-12, 00:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverrocket View Post
1. Globalization isn't just a matter of nations that were not represented before now are, it is an increase in global cycling popularity which results in a much deeper overall talent pool. The overall level is much higher, so its more difficult to rise head and shoulders above the rest (a la Merckx).

2. Training/diet etc. was much more informal back then. This would lead to much more variation between riders, and the riders doing it "correctly" would see bigger gains. These days everybody knows about anaerobic thresholds, recovery, intervals (no, Sky didn't invent these!), bike fitting, etc. Knowledge has helped level the playing field.

3. Race radios.
yes, knowledge is power (point 2)
and yes ban race radios, because knowledge is power
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  #29  
Old 11-18-12, 16:13
Echoes Echoes is online now
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And of that whole long list hpow many actually won anything of any note? Altig, Pettersen, Hoban, Thurau and maybe Ritter
Oh I see, a gloryhunter. Documentate please. There are plenty of other stars in my list. Enough fooling yourself. Talking about Eastern Euros or non Euros, you might have been credible but then moving on to the Brits was laughable, then to the Scandinavians was even more and now the Germans well that's beyond imagination. Next what? The Swiss maybe? I'm quite embarrassed here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post
You managed to name three North Americans and one Eastern European from that whole period in all races - there have been more teams from those areas in modern races.
The Polish formed a team in several "open" races in the West.

I named more than one Eastern Euro but one was of particular importance Ruharzs Szukorwski (spelling still probably wrong) because he dominated the field on the other side of the curtain.

Some more: Antoine Trus (Poland), Dieter Wiedemann (Germany; Former GDR), Siegfried Adler (Germany; former GDR), Horst Oldenburg (Germany; former GDR), Maryan Polansky (Stateless; Polish descent?), Jiri Daler (Czechoslovakia), Mieczyslaw Nowicki (Poland), Tadeusz Mitnyk (Poland), Tadeusz Zawada (Poland), Lech Tomaszewski (Poland), Jozef Kaczmarek (Poland), Janusz Kowalski (Poland), Jan Brzezny (Poland), Bernard Kreczynski (Poland), Zbigniew Krzeszowiec (Poland), Wojciech Matusiak (Poland), Miloš Fišera (Czechoslovakia), Pavel Krejčí (Czechoslovakia), Jiri Murdych (Czechoslovakia). All these guys had their chance against the best Western Euros of the time.

Also Stablinski and Graczyk were Polish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post
In Merckx's last winning Tour in 1974 there were 130 riders. Only six of them came from outside the 'big five' nations.
Hey dude, there are dozens and dozens of races other than Bore de France in a cycling calendar. So check out the startlists of all the major classics of the 70's and then we can start the discussion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post
Nowadays a Brit and a Canadian have won Grand Tours and an Aussie and a Kazakh monuments in just this season.
Continental Western Euro standard dropped beautifully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryo Hazuki
the best colombian rider (cochise) came to europe well in his 30s. even then he was only allowed to work for gimondi except a few giro stages, which he won and trofeo barachin (duo itt with gimondi). there's a notirous intevriew with cochize where he said gimondi used him to literally pull himself up the climbs, by pushing his arms on him and launching himself everytime until chochise couldn't hold it anymore.
You sent me that interview by e-mail and I still appreciate that despite the fact you've constantly been spitting your hatred on my face on this forum ever since.

I'm still not convinced that had he come to Europe earlier Cochise could've beaten Merckx on a regular basis. There have been many races where he could race for himself. The Giro is not everything. Better than his Giro stages is his Camaiore GP win in 1973, for me !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryo Hazuki
besides that's not even the point. the point of globalisaiton is that now there are way ebtter cyclists from all over the world. the brits of today are better than then, same with latin americans, north americans, scandinvaians, australians, germans etc etc
You'll have to convince me. And that's exactly the point. Parker said that riders from these nations did not exist at that time and I had to react ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverrocket
2. Training/diet etc. was much more informal back then. This would lead to much more variation between riders, and the riders doing it "correctly" would see bigger gains. These days everybody knows about anaerobic thresholds, recovery, intervals (no, Sky didn't invent these!), bike fitting, etc.
But for goodness sake, Coppi invented intervals in the forties or at least brought it to cycling. The method gradually improved and generalized but it was totally generalized in the late sixties. Van Kerrebroeck trained on interval, Berten Van Damme trained on interval, the De Vlaeminck's trained on interval since amateur years, Monseré trained on interval in his first year as amateur.

With regards to training and diet, Bobet, De Bruyne, Van Looy, Geminiani, Adorni owe everything to Coppi.

I have an interview of Louis Caput in the Seventies in which he said that everybody then "did the job", which was not the case in the fifties when he raced, and not the case for himself in particular.

Last edited by Echoes; 11-18-12 at 16:28.
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  #30  
Old 11-18-12, 16:45
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Ryo Hazuki Ryo Hazuki is offline
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man I'd rather speak to a brick wall. at least he/she has better arguments
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