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  #21  
Old 11-18-12, 14:19
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Libertine Seguros Libertine Seguros is offline
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Mo Farah is way less suspect than Christine Ohuruogu. She's only run sub-50 seconds 3 times in her career - 2 Olympic finals and a World Championships final. Add that to her whereabouts issues.

Didn't a bunch of Ukrainian wrestlers suddenly become British in the last couple of years too? I think at least one of those has popped positive recently.

Also, you say that you can't believe that any of the recent Olympic cycling success is doping related, but what in God's name makes Wiggins' or Froome's recent transformations less suspicious than Mo Farah's?
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  #22  
Old 11-18-12, 15:55
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Nice story, but what gets me is two fold. Why is this only being reported out now and why not publish the list, its time to clear it all out and that list should aid in the recovery process.
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  #23  
Old 11-18-12, 17:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le breton View Post
Thanks L'arriviste for your post.

So, do you think it's worth reading Hoberman's paper?
Sorry, I don't follow you there: which paper?

Do you mean the one he did for the SCA case? I don't know if that's even in the public domain, but I haven't read it anyway.

Or, if you mean the original annuaire list, I came across that very recently. It attempts to cover a much broader time period than either Dr Hoberman or I in our different ways but again, without any sources in situ, I can appreciate how some may have found it questionable back when it was fully out there.

I have reason to believe that the author of the list does possess the sources but that they were not made available online, presumably for lack of resources and reproduction rights.
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  #24  
Old 11-18-12, 18:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine Seguros View Post
Mo Farah is way less suspect than Christine Ohuruogu. She's only run sub-50 seconds 3 times in her career - 2 Olympic finals and a World Championships final. Add that to her whereabouts issues.Accepted: dare I say it, also bodyshape looks doped

Didn't a bunch of Ukrainian wrestlers suddenly become British in the last couple of years too? I think at least one of those has popped positive recently.

Also, you say that you can't believe that any of the recent Olympic cycling success is doping related, but what in God's name makes Wiggins' or Froome's recent transformations less suspicious than Mo Farah's?
Well, the thread is about nationalism and I am trying to reflect on my own issues/attitudes. But, since you ask, to the best of my knowledge, the athletes trained alone, whereas Wiggins is so integrated into British Cycling that there is no way he would take all that down with him. IMHPO (P=prejudiced)
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  #25  
Old 11-18-12, 19:16
Grandillusion Grandillusion is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coinneach View Post
Well, the thread is about nationalism and I am trying to reflect on my own issues/attitudes. But, since you ask, to the best of my knowledge, the athletes trained alone, whereas Wiggins is so integrated into British Cycling that there is no way he would take all that down with him. IMHPO (P=prejudiced)
After class with Chingon, Coinneach... it's really not that hard, you'll get there in the end. Then be able to move on.

Clue: Hoberman. Read it again a couple of times and try to forget about Sky and Wiggins for a while.
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  #26  
Old 11-19-12, 15:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandillusion View Post
It's a fantastically thought provoking article. He's been thinking about this problem for 25 years, and the implications are pretty bleak really aren't they?
it's not that thought provoking if you've hung around the clinic for more than a week. there's few if any ideas in it that hadn't occurred to me ages ago.

also, there are plenty of simple changes that would move the sport forward that he's missed so it's not really all that bleak either. there's actually more hope than there has been for some time. pessimism bias much?
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  #27  
Old 11-19-12, 15:27
Grandillusion Grandillusion is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lean,mean,&green View Post
it's not that thought provoking if you've hung around the clinic for more than a week. there's few if any ideas in it that hadn't occurred to me ages ago.

also, there are plenty of simple changes that would move the sport forward that he's missed so it's not really all that bleak either. there's actually more hope than there has been for some time. pessimism bias much?
You can try and fool yourself, but don't think anybody else will be convinced.

Let's hear your plan then.
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  #28  
Old 11-19-12, 17:03
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Originally Posted by Grandillusion View Post
You can try and fool yourself, but don't think anybody else will be convinced.

Let's hear your plan then.
really, you're a bright guy, you can't figure it out for yourself?

1. completely independent testing and results management.

2. transparency - how often are athletes tested? what samples are taken? blood? urine? timing of those tests? etc. the info made public from WADA's TdF independent observer report should be standard practice.

3. a more robust passport based system.

4. graduated penalties - stronger evidence and more efficacious drugs/methods recieve harsher penalties. weaker drugs where there's a chance of contamination recieve less. hypothetically, maybe as little as 3 months where contamination is a realistic concern. your're caught with blood bags or EPO? 2 years or maybe even more. leniency for cooperation is also a step in the right direction.

(we may need to categorize the prohibited substance list)

(for slower types, this would start to eliminate the all or nothing labeling stigma of doping)

5. inform and educate the general public of these ideas

6. WADA accounting with the intent to recognize sports federations or governing bodies that are meeting higher standards. Fully compliant organizations should be recognized as such. Sports/federations that aren't compliant should also be recognized. Highly, moderately, and minimally compliant organizations could be labeled platinum, gold, and silver respectively or some other arbitrary ranking you prefer more.

there's more, should i keep going or do you get the point?
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Last edited by lean,mean,&green; 11-19-12 at 17:06.
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  #29  
Old 11-19-12, 17:19
Grandillusion Grandillusion is offline
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No, keep going. It'd be great if you could try to successfully engage a few people into dialogue as well. I'd be really grateful if you succeeded. Honestly, I'm all ears.
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  #30  
Old 11-19-12, 17:47
Grandillusion Grandillusion is offline
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Any chance you might address some of Dr Hobermans points LGM? The interesting cultural contradictions he alludes to. The ones which may make your plan rather awkward to implement?

Page 4: Indifference of sports fans to PED use.

The pretence by authorities regarding enforcement?

The hypocritical pretence by "fans" on other parts of this forum that they care about PED use. Go to the Tour de France predictions section and gauge how much they care about the issue.

Ask yourself how many are like them.

Then get back to me with some analysis. As I say, I'm all ears.
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