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  #12721  
Old 11-14-12, 22:42
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auscyclefan94 auscyclefan94 is offline
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Er, I am not supporting your argument. Learn to read carefully acf.

Freedom, as a concept, is not a blanket statement that automatically means that you have the liberty to act, speak and think as you like. What you are arguing for is the notion of freedom as an opportunity concept.

What I am arguing for is the idea of freedom as an exercise concept. What does this mean? Well, it means that freedom, in order to value it properly, has to be cultivated to some degree.

Freedom as mere opportunity is too thin a notion. Besides, if you believe Hobbes, which you won't, one of the founding notions of entering into a social contract is to get away from a state of nature in which there is war of all against all. To do so, your freedom, ultimately has to be curtailed somewhat in order to try and secure a life that may be more safe, and perhaps more meaningful. There is, and always will be, a sense of paternalism in any society. To argue against it is to eloquently argue for your own idiocy.

But go on, acf, continue to argue that a fat tax encroaches on personal freedom because you value freedom as opportunity so much. It makes so little sense to argue against that which tries to help you.
You don't think you are, but you have. I understand limits to freedom but I don't agree with it on this point. I think there is a difference or line between what is over-the-top in restricting freedom and what is reasonable. I do not see the fat tax reasonable for the aforementioned reasons.
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second post ever after reading the forum for the last few years and one thing i must say, ACF94 is probably the most intelligent poster here, never biased to BMC or Cadel, and never gets worked up over anything.
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  #12722  
Old 11-16-12, 00:03
trompe le monde trompe le monde is offline
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Originally Posted by auscyclefan94 View Post
You don't think you are, but you have. I understand limits to freedom but I don't agree with it on this point. I think there is a difference or line between what is over-the-top in restricting freedom and what is reasonable. I do not see the fat tax reasonable for the aforementioned reasons.
Oh wise one, lead me to the light! I appreciate that you have not responded to anything I have said, but merely said a blanket statement that is, well, meaningless, in absence of context that you failed to address. You have learned well and are well on your way to a meaningless career in futile debating.

If you think you can escape some semblance of paternalism in society, you are deeply misguided. Speed limits on roads? That's an expression of paternalism, as it places the safety of the greater good above any individual's desire to drive 160 kph in a designated 60 kph zone. Stop signs on intersections cramping your style? Oh god, paternalism.

I will give you an example since you can't seem to grasp what I am trying to say. Say you have in your hand the following coins: a 1 cent coin, a 5 cent coin, a 10 cent coin and a 25 cent coin. Now, you can say two things about this. One, is that you have four coins. The other is that you have four coins of differing value. This is a token-type distinction. To say you have four coins is to say that you have four tokens whereas to say you have four coins of differing value is to say that you have four types of coins. Understand? Good.

Now, let's apply this to a sin a tax such as a fat tax. One of the assumptions a fat tax assumes is that not all free choices have the same value. That is, free choices fall within a range of values, some trivial, some important, with the caviat that people are willing to sacrifice trivial choices in order to make more important ones. Ergo, I would be willing to sacrifice fatty foods through a fat tax if that will help me achieve my goal of being able to travel in the future once I retire. Because let's be honest, it is easier to travel if I have some degree of moderate health rather than having the weight and appearance of a bloated walrus. In this case, I would put the value of being able to choose fatty foods at 1 cent and my being able to travel once I retire at 25 cents because I identify more with the travel goal because it is much more meaningful to me. Still get it? Good.


If you identify freedom of choice as strictly a token that cannot be curtailed in any shape or form, you are demeaning it by saying the value of the ability to make a free choice is equal across all situations. I would not say that the freedom to choose a package of chips over a bunch of broccoli has the same value or is equally as important as that of being able to choose where you would like to work, where you live, etc. To think that a restriction of choice that a fat tax would implement as unreasonable is unreasonable because it is premissed on the idea that all choices have equal value, which is quite frankly, moronic.
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Last edited by trompe le monde; 11-17-12 at 21:38.
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  #12723  
Old 11-18-12, 23:45
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anyone following the rape of gaza ?

the rape by the ethnic and cultural group of people who had experience the same at the hands of the historically condemned Nazi ideology some decades back?

...i decided to ask b/c there was no relevant posting and after just reading the guardian's piece, 'gaza: 4 children killed in single israeli air strike'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...led-air-strike
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  #12724  
Old 11-19-12, 00:22
Murray Murray is offline
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anyone following the rape of gaza ?
anyone following the hundreds of rockets Hamas is firing on a daily basis into Israel?
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  #12725  
Old 11-19-12, 01:27
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Originally Posted by python View Post
anyone following the rape of gaza ?

the rape by the ethnic and cultural group of people who had experience the same at the hands of the historically condemned Nazi ideology some decades back?

...i decided to ask b/c there was no relevant posting and after just reading the guardian's piece, 'gaza: 4 children killed in single israeli air strike'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...led-air-strike
Gaza is the world's biggest concentration camp. It is sort of funny how sanctimoniously outraged the jailers get when the prisoners get out of hand.
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  #12726  
Old 11-19-12, 01:41
Murray Murray is offline
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It is sort of funny how sanctimoniously outraged the jailers get when the prisoners get out of hand.
You know what else is "sort of funny"; how the "prisoners" got their hands on hundreds of rockets that they're firing at civilians.
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  #12727  
Old 11-19-12, 01:56
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Amsterhammer Amsterhammer is offline
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I've been staying away from this because of embarrassment and shame. I am a non-practicing Jew. I was born not long after the Holocaust. Various members of my mother's extended family were gassed and strung up on lamp posts.

I think that Israel should have the right to exist, but I have never been any kind of Zionist. Israeli governments have made me feel ashamed for as long as I can remember. I cannot ****ing believe that Jews could oppress and suppress another people as brutally as they have been doing. Every time it kicks off the kill ratio is 10:1 or worse. I believe three Israelis have been killed so far (certainly, three too many,) while we're sadly into the dozens of dead Palestinians, including those four children.

Usually, after the feelings of shock, horror and shame, I start to get really ****ing angry. Which is why I try and avoid talking/thinking/writing about these actions by 'my' people, actions that in many instances should be prosecuted as war crimes and crimes against humanity.

(an exact progression of my feelings)
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  #12728  
Old 11-19-12, 02:18
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Amsterhammer.... I agree with everything you said. The problem is that both sides have to stop the shooting and actually want to have peace.
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  #12729  
Old 11-19-12, 13:50
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There just seems to be no solutions to the middle east problems. It's one disaster after another.
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  #12730  
Old 11-19-12, 18:26
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You know what else is "sort of funny"; how the "prisoners" got their hands on hundreds of rockets that they're firing at civilians.
Yeah, outrageous, How dare those people fight against their oppressors, those people who have lived their entire lives under occupation with children who have lived their entire lives under occupation and grandchildren who have lived their entire lives under occupation. Why don't they just lay down so they can be treated like vermin for another three generations.

Never again, I say. Never again (unless they are Palestinians)!
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