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  #5181  
Old 11-19-12, 17:40
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Alpe d'Huez Alpe d'Huez is offline
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Reading through recent posts, I still haven't come to a compelling conclusion that this thread should remain open, and these discussions shouldn't just continue in the General Politics thread.

As of today, I'm leaning towards closing this thread either soon, or perhaps the day US Congress is sworn in and the President takes office for his second term.
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  #5182  
Old 11-19-12, 17:46
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Originally Posted by Alpe d'Huez View Post
Reading through recent posts, I still haven't come to a compelling conclusion that this thread should remain open, and these discussions shouldn't just continue in the General Politics thread.

As of today, I'm leaning towards closing this thread either soon, or perhaps the day US Congress is sworn in and the President takes office for his second term.
Well considering that the General Politics thread has become the BASH Israel thread it is much more fun to post in this thread where we all seem to get along now.

Next thing you know I will be in agreement with Rub.
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  #5183  
Old 11-19-12, 17:56
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When you have a little better understanding of exactly how that company was f'ing over the unions then maybe you can contribute something worthwhile.

And what was management doing at the time of those "substantial concessions by the two big unions"? ****ing up some more.

http://management.fortune.cnn.com/20...kies-bankrupt/

It wasn't the unions, dude. They bent over backward.
The Teamsters multi-employer pension plan, stupid union restrictions requiring bread versus sweets (couldn't be in the same truck), Bakers would not take the deal at Hostess because it would set precedent for other on-going contract negotiations at other companies, dozens and dozens of legacy obligations.... in the end 6700 Teamsters got hosed by their "brothers" over at the bakers union.

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"Unfortunately, the company's operating and financial problems were so severe that it required steep concessions from a variety of stakeholders but not all stakeholders were willing to be constructive," said Ken Hall, the Teamsters' Secretary-Treasurer. "Teamster Hostess members, based on the facts and advice from respected restructuring advisors, understood what was at stake and voted to protect all jobs at Hostess."
Meanwhile Ripplewood is out (at this point) at least $150,000,000.
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  #5184  
Old 11-19-12, 18:32
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Those wonderful anti-abortion Republicans. Do what I say, not what I do:

Rep. DesJarlais admitted to affairs with patients, supported abortions: Report

Winning re-election has failed to quiet scandals surrounding Rep. Scott DesJarlais.

Court transcripts from his 2001 divorce trial obtained by the Chattanooga Times Free Press and reported on Thursday revealed that the Tennessee Republican tea partyer, a former physician, had admitted to sexual relationships with patients and supported his wife's abortions.

DesJarlais reportedly also admitted to having affairs with co-workers and a drug representative while serving as chief of staff at Grandview Medical Center in Jasper, Tenn. "During one affair with a female patient, DesJarlais prescribed her drugs, gave her an $875 watch and bought her a plane ticket to Las Vegas, records show," the newspaper wrote.

DesJarlais also reportedly supported his wife's two abortions before they were married, one of which occurred while she was on medication that carried risks.

A DesJarlais spokesman did not immediately respond to Yahoo News' request for comment.

DesJarlais was dogged by stories of his past affairs during his re-election campaign this year. A story in the Huffington Post on Oct. 28 alleged that he encouraged a patient he impregnated to have an abortion. DesJarlais, who espouses an anti-abortion platform, denied that the woman became pregnant or had an abortion, and said the relationship took place during his divorce proceedings.

A freshman, DesJarlais easily clinched re-election Nov. 6 in Tennessee's 4th District over Democratic state Sen. Eric Stewart. DesJarlais had been heavily favored to win, but the scandalous reports prompted some Democrats to invest in opposing his candidacy in the campaign's final weeks.

The Times Free Press reports that the state Democratic Party attempted to obtain DesJarlais' divorce trial transcripts before the election, but the court delayed the release of the 679-page document.
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  #5185  
Old 11-19-12, 18:52
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The Teamsters multi-employer pension plan, stupid union restrictions requiring bread versus sweets (couldn't be in the same truck), Bakers would not take the deal at Hostess because it would set precedent for other on-going contract negotiations at other companies, dozens and dozens of legacy obligations.... in the end 6700 Teamsters got hosed by their "brothers" over at the bakers union.



Meanwhile Ripplewood is out (at this point) at least $150,000,000.
And all the while:

Quote:
Hostess has been relying on pretty much the same mix of products for decades. While other companies have sought to adjust to changing consumer tastes, Hostess still gets the vast majority of its revenue from a relatively small number of products that it has been selling in largely the same form since the sixties. This failure to innovate was the main reason that the company first went into bankruptcy in 2004.

Hostess remained in bankruptcy for five years until it was brought out of bankruptcy in February of 2009 by Ripplewood Holdings, a private equity company. Remarkably, it exited bankruptcy with nearly $670 million in debt, almost 50 percent more than the $450 million it owed when it went into bankruptcy.

Usually companies use bankruptcy to shed debt. With Hostess the opposite was true. This meant that Ripplewood was taking a heavily leveraged gamble. If the company survived, it would get a very high return on its investment. However there was a strong likelihood that the company would not be able to make it given its extraordinary debt burden and the weakness of the economy.

Ripplewood first asked workers for concessions in August of 2011. The workers refused since they had made substantial concessions in 2008 to facilitate the exit from bankruptcy. The concessions did not prevent layoffs of close to 20 percent of the workforce. The company also had stopped making payment to the pension fund in July of 2011 and is now more than $160 million in arrears.

Ripplewood took the company back into bankruptcy in January of this year, owing close to $1 billion. It has used bankruptcy to impose new contract terms on workers. This is the immediate cause of the current impasse, with the bakery workers’ union refusing to accept the reductions in pay and benefits and changes in work rules demanded by management.

Workers had several important issues to consider beyond just the prospect of working for less pay and under worse conditions. First, and most importantly, there was little reason to have much confidence in the current management team. They had done nothing to turn the company around in the three years since the last bankruptcy and there was little reason to believe that they would do any better going forward.

Accepting new concessions would provide no guarantee of job security. In fact, management wanted the unions to agree to the closure of 10-12 plants (of its choosing) as part of a new contract. This means that many of the company’s 18,000 workers would soon have been laid off even if the workers had accepted management’s terms.

Second, management was not shy about rewarding itself in spite of the company’s poor financial condition. The CEO upped his annual pay to $2.25 million and other top executives got raises of 35-80 percent. This doesn’t seem like the behavior of management that puts the survival of the company first.

Third, the financial situation of the pension has to be a top concern for workers. While the pension is guaranteed by the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation, the guarantee for multi-employer plans like the one at Hostess is limited. If the plan were to become insolvent then many workers would see large cuts in benefits.

From this standpoint, if Hostess were to continue to put off contributions to the pension and allow it to become badly underfunded, then workers could be looking at sharply reduced pensions in retirement. Workers who are approaching retirement age may view this prospect as a far greater danger than the risk of losing their job at this stage in their career.

Whether or not it was good judgment for the workers and their unions to refuse the concessions demanded by management is not clear. At this point, it’s still possible that the company was bluffing and will keep some of its plants open or that another buyer will come in and keep some of the plants operating.

However it is hard to blame workers for not putting their trust in a management team that shows little competence and is rapidly stuffing its pockets at the company’s expense. It is bad news for workers and the economy as a whole when such people gain control of major corporations.
http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/...l-from-hostess

Yeah, management was really concerned about their employees and demonstrated it by manipulating their own compensation packages prior to bankruptcy:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...512506050.html
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  #5186  
Old 11-19-12, 19:38
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And all the while:

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/...l-from-hostess

Yeah, management was really concerned about their employees and demonstrated it by manipulating their own compensation packages prior to bankruptcy:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...512506050.html
Yeah, the optics are bad. I agree with that.

The money you speak of accounts for a few hours of operating expenses and probably less than a day's payroll.

A little perspective goes a long way.

Perhaps it was inevitable but the fact is the Bakers union decided to shut these guys down. 5,000 workers decided for the other 13,500 and now they are all unemployed. It's that simple.
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  #5187  
Old 11-19-12, 20:25
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Yeah, the optics are bad. I agree with that.

The money you speak of accounts for a few hours of operating expenses and probably less than a day's payroll.

A little perspective goes a long way.

Perhaps it was inevitable but the fact is the Bakers union decided to shut these guys down. 5,000 workers decided for the other 13,500 and now they are all unemployed. It's that simple.
It's also the case that the removal of Hostess from the American cultural landscape iis no loss in any significant way, one. Two, that its only contribution could be seen as employment and revenue generation (but apparently not) although one would think that those jobs should be translatable and that if they aren't then people need to start acquiring alternative skill sets, perhaps taking up professions which are mostly reliant on mechanical industrialization.
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  #5188  
Old 11-19-12, 20:46
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It's also the case that the removal of Hostess from the American cultural landscape iis no loss in any significant way, one. Two, that its only contribution could be seen as employment and revenue generation (but apparently not) although one would think that those jobs should be translatable and that if they aren't then people need to start acquiring alternative skill sets, perhaps taking up professions which are mostly reliant on mechanical industrialization.
Well, Hostess will be purchased. The union deals won't.

As to the skill sets of the various union workers there... I have no idea what they are or how they will translate.
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  #5189  
Old 11-19-12, 23:39
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Marco Rubio, Latino savior of the Republican party? Maybe not.

http://ecographica.blogspot.com/2010...in-closet.html

Prior to 2008 the word ‘evolution’ wasn’t even included in Florida’s science education standards. In 2007, when a much needed revision of the State’s education standards began to lift the veil from the eyes of Florida’s students, Rubio was there as Speaker of the House pleading for inclusion of intelligent design as part of the science curriculum. Rubio fought against the teaching of evolution claiming that it infringed on Academic Freedom. Rubio argued for Academic Freedom in the same sense that it is propped by the Discovery Institute; the version of teaching that allows creationism to be placed on equal ground with biology, astrology on common footing with astronomy, and the version that grants alchemy the scientific relevancy of chemistry.

When interviewed about the teaching of evolution, Cuban-American Rubio compared the teaching of evolution to the tactics used by Fidel Castro’s communist party to undermine families and the church - a means of controlling the masses.
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  #5190  
Old 11-20-12, 00:26
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Marco Rubio, Latino savior of the Republican party? Maybe not.

http://ecographica.blogspot.com/2010...in-closet.html

Prior to 2008 the word ‘evolution’ wasn’t even included in Florida’s science education standards. In 2007, when a much needed revision of the State’s education standards began to lift the veil from the eyes of Florida’s students, Rubio was there as Speaker of the House pleading for inclusion of intelligent design as part of the science curriculum. Rubio fought against the teaching of evolution claiming that it infringed on Academic Freedom. Rubio argued for Academic Freedom in the same sense that it is propped by the Discovery Institute; the version of teaching that allows creationism to be placed on equal ground with biology, astrology on common footing with astronomy, and the version that grants alchemy the scientific relevancy of chemistry.

When interviewed about the teaching of evolution, Cuban-American Rubio compared the teaching of evolution to the tactics used by Fidel Castro’s communist party to undermine families and the church - a means of controlling the masses.
OMG what an idiot. And totally unfit for any office. not just for the wackjob beliefs but for not being able to figure out that hes better off just saying yes, rather than spend a paragrpah trying to explain why he doesn't know the answer to the 1 relevant question the magazine asked him.

Kind of ironic that a politician spends an entire interview talking at length about his favorite rap stars, but moans that questions about science have nothing to do with him.
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