Doping, nationalism, culture - Page 4 - CyclingNews Forum

Go Back   CyclingNews Forum > Road > The Clinic

The Clinic The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 11-19-12, 17:57
lean,mean,&green's Avatar
lean,mean,&green lean,mean,&green is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 736
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandillusion View Post
Any chance you might address some of Dr Hobermans points LGM? The interesting cultural contradictions he alludes to. The ones which may make your plan rather awkward to implement?

Page 4: Indifference of sports fans to PED use.

The pretence by authorities regarding enforcement?

The hypocritical pretence by "fans" on other parts of this forum that they care about PED use. Go to the Tour de France predictions section and gauge how much they care about the issue.

Ask yourself how many are like them.

Then get back to me with some analysis. As I say, I'm all ears.
the suggested changes don't address those contradictions or fan apathy, they are necessary as a result of them.
__________________
"In great attempts it is even glorious to fail" -V Lombardi
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 11-19-12, 18:06
lean,mean,&green's Avatar
lean,mean,&green lean,mean,&green is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 736
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandillusion View Post
No, keep going. It'd be great if you could try to successfully engage a few people into dialogue as well. I'd be really grateful if you succeeded. Honestly, I'm all ears.
the thing is, we've been over this stuff many times.

#4 (graduated penalties) and #6 (UCI, FIFA, NFL, etc report cards) are mostly my idea but I wouldn't be surprised if someone's come up with them before, they're far from genius.
__________________
"In great attempts it is even glorious to fail" -V Lombardi
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 11-19-12, 18:09
Grandillusion Grandillusion is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 254
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lean,mean,&green View Post
the suggested changes don't address those contradictions or fan apathy, they are necessary as a result of them.
But that avoids the whole issue - the problem of implementing the changes is the whole story. You seem to imply it's a simple slam-dunk, and it isn't. It's a nigh on insuperable hurdle, and the interesting debate is how change really can happen.

Just making a list and crossing your fingers is going to get nobody anywhere.

The dudes over on the other side (TDF) are part of the hurdle, and their hypocrisy is pretty obvious & I would have thought needed challenging.

Nobody seems to be calling them out. Asking them look at their attitudes.

That's all I'm getting at.

I'm not trying to **** anybody off, but they don't like it & have been ignoring and attacking.

No probs, I can handle that. But don't pretend I'm full of ****.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 11-19-12, 19:04
fatandfast fatandfast is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,144
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lean,mean,&green View Post
it's not that thought provoking if you've hung around the clinic for more than a week. there's few if any ideas in it that hadn't occurred to me ages ago.

also, there are plenty of simple changes that would move the sport forward that he's missed so it's not really all that bleak either. there's actually more hope than there has been for some time. pessimism bias much?
If you have some misplaced opinion that things are greatly improved may I suggest making a flow chart using regular symbols,or using old fortran symbols that have lots of and/if statements after an action. The doped or accused oped rider is still going to be subjected to a huge variation in outcome. Take anybody that has been popped in the last 3 years. Make sure that your diagram includes the return to the riders home country. Contador and Schleck, Armstrong,Hincapie, Vaughters all riders caught for doping by the UCI,all with completely different outcomes.

Until any doping policy for pro bike racing has zero to do w the federation that the offending rider participated in as an amateur and the IOC weighing in the process will be complicated and ineffective. Right now the dozens of rider organizations,federations,private and government financiers or sanctioning agencies all struggling to agree who is in charge will continue the mess.

The idea that McQuaid has been endorsed by a few of the existing groups is insane. The fact that he reviewed his current resume, w experiences in not catching Lance or really anybody else, degrading public confidence in pro cycling to an all time low and feeling that he is eager to continue with more of the same is bewildering. He has failed in every aspect.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 11-20-12, 02:27
lean,mean,&green's Avatar
lean,mean,&green lean,mean,&green is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 736
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandillusion View Post
LMG gave the airy impression this was a simple tick the list job. He was plainly attempting to patronise and dismiss. Don't try and bull**** me mate. I know your game.

And LMG can fight his own battles.
not quite. the solutions ARE relatively simple. the fox can't watch the hen house. implementing those changes is far from simple or else it would be done already. hoberman gets it. everybody with half a brain gets it.

its not enough to say this system is broken. everyone understands that too.

the next question is what does effective antidoping look like? for someone who has dedicated so much time to understanding the problem, hoberman's solutions are vague to say the least.

i'm not really sure what the last few pages are about.
__________________
"In great attempts it is even glorious to fail" -V Lombardi

Last edited by lean,mean,&green; 11-20-12 at 02:39.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 11-20-12, 04:06
Grandillusion Grandillusion is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 254
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lean,mean,&green View Post
not quite. the solutions ARE relatively simple. the fox can't watch the hen house. implementing those changes is far from simple or else it would be done already. hoberman gets it. everybody with half a brain gets it.

its not enough to say this system is broken. everyone understands that too.

the next question is what does effective antidoping look like? for someone who has dedicated so much time to understanding the problem, hoberman's solutions are vague to say the least.

i'm not really sure what the last few pages are about.
Good, we agree then in essence. The implementation is the only thing that counts, it's going to be as difficult as we all agree it will be to effect, and Hoberman seems to be implying he may have some solutions.

The article (and that's all it is, not a paper or essay by Hoberman) ends with the tantalising prospect of some solutions. He says he's optimistic, post RD, even in the face of the sorts of complex cultural problems he's identified, which have led him to be described as somewhat jaded.

He's been in touch with people like l'Arriviste who have a serious academic interest in the whole issue.

I for one am intrigued to know more, not to mention explore the difficulties he has identified. These issues have not been discussed elsewhere as far as I'm aware. Others just seemed to want to sneer, dismiss and undermine. Which I find pathetic and unworthy, especially on a site like this which you would have thought might be welcoming of any new insight, or the chance to explore those issues in a rational way.

Last edited by Grandillusion; 11-20-12 at 04:08.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 11-21-12, 16:28
red_flanders's Avatar
red_flanders red_flanders is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,431
Default

This was a good thread and can be again. 35 off topic, insulting posts with endless bickering and swearing have been deleted.

If your posts have been deleted, you're in danger of a ban.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 11-21-12, 21:54
Le breton Le breton is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: switzerland
Posts: 1,280
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by L'arriviste View Post
Sorry, I don't follow you there: which paper?

.
OOPS

I should have written, Mark Johnson's Velonation's paper inspired by Hoberman's study
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 11-22-12, 14:58
Lukenwolf Lukenwolf is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: United States of Germanyland
Posts: 153
Default

After reading that article twice, to me it boils down to this: You can't eliminate doping - the best you can hope for is making it less common.

First of all: Only because the Cold War is over, the nationalism is still there just as strong as before. We Germans have a unique insight into that. East Germany used doping to promote itself. A country of 16 Million people - there are cities with more than that - regularly popped up in the Top 5 in Olympics and other major competitions. The whole eastern bloc relied on east german research into doping. After the wall fell, the big cleanup started. The things that came to light back then makes Armstrong's system look like a kiddies birthday party. An former coaches were jailed and banned by the truckload.
Did that eliminate doping or the underlying nationalism? Phat chance. It is still there. Actually before the London Olympics each association of the different kinds of sports got mail from the NOC with detailed demands on how many medals they were supposed to bring home. Those that failed the quota will get less money from the state next year, those that exceeded it, will get more.

How is such a system supposed to discourage the use of performance enhancing drugs. It's good ol' G.D.R. - same dance, just a different tune and I don't believe that Germany is the only country where things work like that.
__________________
I swear to drunk, I'm not god!
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 11-22-12, 15:42
Dr. Maserati Dr. Maserati is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,035
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukenwolf View Post
After reading that article twice, to me it boils down to this: You can't eliminate doping - the best you can hope for is making it less common.
Well, for me that's a given. You will never be able to eliminate doping.
But it's like in aviation - you cannot eliminate all accidents, but you can ensure theres a robust system that applies standards that actively seeks to reduce incidents by looking at all aspects involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukenwolf View Post
First of all: Only because the Cold War is over, the nationalism is still there just as strong as before. We Germans have a unique insight into that. East Germany used doping to promote itself. A country of 16 Million people - there are cities with more than that - regularly popped up in the Top 5 in Olympics and other major competitions. The whole eastern bloc relied on east german research into doping. After the wall fell, the big cleanup started. The things that came to light back then makes Armstrong's system look like a kiddies birthday party. An former coaches were jailed and banned by the truckload.
Did that eliminate doping or the underlying nationalism? Phat chance. It is still there. Actually before the London Olympics each association of the different kinds of sports got mail from the NOC with detailed demands on how many medals they were supposed to bring home. Those that failed the quota will get less money from the state next year, those that exceeded it, will get more.

How is such a system supposed to discourage the use of performance enhancing drugs. It's good ol' G.D.R. - same dance, just a different tune and I don't believe that Germany is the only country where things work like that.
That's appears to be the way most countries now operate.
Certainly there is the obvious danger. A nation wants medals - and is also wanting (pretending?!) thats it is clean.
But in recognizing it, it also shows the solution. Most countries now have a separate anti-doping agency (USADA, UKAD etc) but this also needs to be done on a global basis, which is where WADA now have a role.

Anti-doping (just like doping) is an evolving process, which for the most part is going in the right direction.
Whi
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:55.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2006 - 2009 Future Publishing Limited. All rights reserved. Future Publishing Limited is part of the Future plc group. Future Publishing Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company registration number 2008885 whose registered office is at Beauford Court 30 Monmouth Street Bath, UK BA1 2BW England.