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  #1241  
Old 11-20-12, 02:26
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These are the sorts of adaptations that result from high volume training and that Wiggins was likely underdone compared to every one of his present GT rivals since they were all road focused from 2004-2008 whereas Wiggins was track focused.
Elite endurance track cyclists do 35,000km/year.

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Again you repeat a lie that Wiggins was a nobody in long ITTs prior to 2009. He was already world class at long ITTs and switching from track to road it has taken him 3-4yrs to further develop those peripheral adaptations which are most important for longer FTP type efforts. He has not improved massively, but only marginally and that is all it takes to become dominant for a single year.
Wiggins was not world class in long TTs. World class meaning podiuming. Coming 21st is not world class. Coming 17th is not world class.
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  #1242  
Old 11-20-12, 02:28
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Riddle me this: Luke Durbridge goes ok over 5.7km - beat Brad Wiggins at the Dauphine prologue this year, aged 21. He was a member of the Aussie 4km team pursuit team for a number of years, but did not make the cut some time ago and moved on to dedicate himself to the road.

Why could he not make the grade in the team pursuit? At the time they mentioned the fact that the opening 1:02 for the KM was just too hard for him, even though he is clearly a very capable TTer, even over short distances.
Still waiting Krebs. And acoggan you're here, you can have a go as well.
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  #1243  
Old 11-20-12, 02:32
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I simply don't have the time or the inclination to point out every piece of garbage that you write, because there are just so many, so for now I'll just pick out this one.
You and I both know you have plenty of time, Krebs. Don't they pay you to be here?

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What you are suggesting here is that peripheral muscle adaptations (eg: mitochondrial density) are what limits VO2max. But this has been clearly and definitively shown to be incorrect from a variety of different experimental approaches from the single leg extensor model, to doping studies to hyperoxia studies and ventilatory unloading studies. There now exists a worldwide general consensus in the scientific literature that oxygen supply (ie: pumping capacity of the heart in conjunction with oxygen carrying capacity of the blood, the very things you are saying above don't make a difference to power production), is the dominant factor that limits whole body VO2. You couldn't have been any further from the truth if you tried.
Are you seriously suggesting that the 4km world champ and olympic gold medallist who raced as a pro cyclist at the same time had underdeveloped peripheral muscle adaptations? Seriously?

Like.

He was winning by margins of up to 9 seconds over 4km and was underdone?

Ok.

You're the PhD.

I am sure everyone will believe you because you put me down.

But I don't.

Because it makes no sense.




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What is hilarious here is that in your idiotic attempt at trying to prove me wrong, you are basically saying that blood doping doesn't increase VO2max!!
I am suggesting that the impact on PVO2max - ie the power produced at VO2max - is less significant an increase than the time to failure at sub-VO2max power. Hence why Wiggins is smashing the longer TTs but still not able to do similar smashing at the shorter TTs. Let me know if you want to do the whole example thing again. It's easy enough.

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edit: oh wait.... maybe you are saying that VO2 is not related to power production? Or maybe you are saying that VO2max is not important over 4min? I can't really tell anymore because you post so much sh!t all the time
Given I wrote a very long post espousing the fact that VO2max and power production are closely related to Hgb mass, citing the study that you then started an entire new thread on, before you mentioned said study, you couldn't be more wrong.
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  #1244  
Old 11-20-12, 02:50
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The simplest example I can provide to illustrate my theory is the 1996 Tour de France.

Bjarne Riis, Mr 60% (Hct that is) wins the overall - but can only manage 6th on the shorter, 9km prologue. He wins stage 16, out climbing Richard Virenque on Hautacam.
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Last edited by Dear Wiggo; 11-20-12 at 02:55.
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  #1245  
Old 11-20-12, 03:44
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Still waiting Krebs. And acoggan you're here, you can have a go as well.
The demands of the IP (and prologues) and TP are clearly not the same. I would therefore take the statement you cited at face value.
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  #1246  
Old 11-20-12, 03:48
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Are you seriously suggesting that the 4km world champ and olympic gold medallist who raced as a pro cyclist at the same time had underdeveloped peripheral muscle adaptations?
Not so much "underdeveloped" as "differently developed"...but nonetheless Kreb's cycle's point is quite valid, i.e., pursuit performance is indicative of your *potential* at longer durations; you still need to train diligently (and differently) to maximize your performance at said durations.
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  #1247  
Old 11-20-12, 04:27
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Not so much "underdeveloped" as "differently developed"...but nonetheless Kreb's cycle's point is quite valid, i.e., pursuit performance is indicative of your *potential* at longer durations; you still need to train diligently (and differently) to maximize your performance at said durations.
Yes exactly.... a point that I made several months ago. Poor wiggo desperately clings to the belief that track endurance cyclists train identically to road cyclists in order to keep his little fantasy world from imploding.
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  #1248  
Old 11-20-12, 04:28
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You have already admitted you have no idea of Wiggins' MAOD - I asked you straight out. So how you can claim he was highly aerobic as opposed to anaerobic is beyond me. You have no idea.
Anyone can make the claim of such a rider for the simple reason that any 4km IP effort will be dominantly aerobic, irrespective of how much of a anaerobic beast you might be. The aerobic contribution to energy demand will be at least double the anaerobic contribution, and often more.

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Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
Riddle me this: Luke Durbridge goes ok over 5.7km - beat Brad Wiggins at the Dauphine prologue this year, aged 21. He was a member of the Aussie 4km team pursuit team for a number of years, but did not make the cut some time ago and moved on to dedicate himself to the road.

Why could he not make the grade in the team pursuit? At the time they mentioned the fact that the opening 1:02 for the KM was just too hard for him, even though he is clearly a very capable TTer, even over short distances.
As Andy said, the TP & IP, while both are dominantly aerobic events, still have significantly different physiological and technical demands, such that often a gifted IP rider may still be physiologically unsuitable for the TP (let alone technically). The neuromuscular demands for one are very different.


If one assumes VO2 uptake kinetics, then it's possible to view the impact on AOD with power meter data, a neat trick Andy Coggan showed me. Analysis of individual and team pursuit power data shows some very interesting and quite revealing differences (apart from those obvious when comparing the power traces alone).
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  #1249  
Old 11-20-12, 04:38
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Anyone can make the claim of such a rider for the simple reason that any 4km IP effort will be dominantly aerobic, irrespective of how much of a anaerobic beast you might be. The aerobic contribution to energy demand will be at least double the anaerobic contribution, and often more.
Yes I am well aware you're not anaerobic for a 4km pursuit. This has been discussed at length, with various examples.

Krebs Cycle and acoggan bang on about THE POTENTIAL for Wiggins to have a superior MAOD, citing it as a possible reason for Wiggins remarkable ability, suddenly, at the 2009 TdF.

Neither of them have any idea if it is superior or not.

I asked Krebs Cycle why he deleted a post first mentioning MAOD, but he refuses to answer it.
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  #1250  
Old 11-20-12, 04:42
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Originally Posted by Alex Simmons/RST View Post
If one assumes VO2 uptake kinetics, then it's possible to view the impact on AOD with power meter data, a neat trick Andy Coggan showed me. Analysis of individual and team pursuit power data shows some very interesting and quite revealing differences (apart from those obvious when comparing the power traces alone).
"If one assumes VO2 uptake kinetics" - doesn't read well. What do you mean?

It's like you've missed words out, or something?
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