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  #561  
Old 11-20-12, 00:43
Ferminal Ferminal is offline
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I've rewatched the 2007 stages over the last few days, it's been a couple of years. I actually forgot he was closer to Contador than the bunch over Galibier. Thought all the action on that stage was in the valley. To do that at the top of Telegraphe-Galibier was super impressive. The time for PdB (historically it's very good) surpises me because of how hard he blew up, reality is he probably couldn't have gone much quicker in any case. It's often where people point to as the place he lost the race, I actually think it's the 40" over Peyresourde the next day. I'd say Aubisque was #1 though, that was crazy. Dropped under a minute to Rasmussen and was catching Contador at the end.

Also think that 2008 AdH must have been somewhat affected by his crash, put his PdB or Aubisque performance in there and he wins easily.

Last edited by Ferminal; 11-20-12 at 00:48.
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  #562  
Old 11-20-12, 01:23
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Originally Posted by Ferminal View Post
I've rewatched the 2007 stages over the last few days, it's been a couple of years. I actually forgot he was closer to Contador than the bunch over Galibier. Thought all the action on that stage was in the valley. To do that at the top of Telegraphe-Galibier was super impressive. The time for PdB (historically it's very good) surpises me because of how hard he blew up, reality is he probably couldn't have gone much quicker in any case. It's often where people point to as the place he lost the race, I actually think it's the 40" over Peyresourde the next day. I'd say Aubisque was #1 though, that was crazy. Dropped under a minute to Rasmussen and was catching Contador at the end.

Also think that 2008 AdH must have been somewhat affected by his crash, put his PdB or Aubisque performance in there and he wins easily.
Have you seen Captaintbag's analysis of Rasmussen's blood values from the period in question? Very telling.
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  #563  
Old 11-20-12, 03:25
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Originally Posted by Grandillusion View Post
"There has been such a change in mentality in cycling now, and I think we have left that behind us, and that's why I say to cycling fans, let's not lose faith"

Which part of that is not parading the BS around? You're right, no one wishes to hear this and be spun to.

Diplomatic? To save whose tender feelings from being hurt? His cheating opponents? Wow! Mr Magnanimity!

"Maybe those people have a thing or two to learn about commitment, hard work, dedication & how far people can go with natural ability"

Wiggins' rant was pre Tygart's RD. And it was insulting to people's intelligence then. How do you think this is going to go down after all that's happened?

"I say to cycling fans, lets not lose faith". Makes me think of Dylan's line from Positively Fourth Street... you got no faith to lose, and you know it.

That last is not directed at you personally by the way..
appreciate all that.

my point is, you cant ride and win in the peloton, if it is you versus 195 other riders who do not want you to win. Dont spit in the soup. Dont get sued for defamation by Armstrong.

there

that was
my point(s)
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  #564  
Old 11-20-12, 03:28
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Originally Posted by PACONi View Post
His quotes were all from 'I'm a doper and trying to hide it without lying too badly 101'.

Here's what I don't get. Why can't a 'clean' rider like Evans/Wiggins hang the dopers out to dry? They've won clean. They don't need the omerta, and if they get the flick from their team because of it, well another team (one of the clean one's, lol) will snap them up in a heartbeat.
Name me a team that wouldn't kill for a rider who can win and win big, clean?
thats where your theory breaks down. no rider, nor premise, no ryder, no clean team, no killing.

This is cycling, it aint OJ Simpson, as Ferrari has said, 1000 gallons of OJ is not dangerous when you know how to use the hypodermic straight IV it

that makes sense
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  #565  
Old 11-20-12, 04:24
Grandillusion Grandillusion is offline
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Originally Posted by blackcat View Post
appreciate all that.

my point is, you cant ride and win in the peloton, if it is you versus 195 other riders who do not want you to win. Dont spit in the soup. Dont get sued for defamation by Armstrong.

there

that was
my point(s)
Yep, totally understand what you're saying. I feel for the guys really, it must be horrible if that's the reality.

I'm just perplexed at the silence since the RD from everyone. It's spooky and I want to know what they're all scared of. Not Armstrong now. Who?

Understand I'm being unfair on Evans if there is some hideous unspoken pressure (which there obviously is). FWIW (nothing) I think he's probably clean as a whistle.

Thanks for the reply.
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  #566  
Old 11-20-12, 04:31
PACONi PACONi is offline
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Originally Posted by blackcat View Post
thats where your theory breaks down. no rider, nor premise, no ryder, no clean team, no killing.

This is cycling, it aint OJ Simpson, as Ferrari has said, 1000 gallons of OJ is not dangerous when you know how to use the hypodermic straight IV it

that makes sense
Ah, my bad. I'm not saying that Evans/Wiggins/Ryder (too lazy to spell that surname ) are clean.
I am saying that a genuinely clean rider (and successful, oxymoron in this sport) could take that approach of calling all the dopers out and survive omerta. And if they can't then that would tell us a hell of a lot about the so called clean teams!
That we don't see it happening might be telling us a lot about the so called clean riders. And maybe I'm being naive now, but I don't see the UCI creating a false positive on a guy who has just won the TdF (for example) clean. Especially an anglo poster boy like Evans/Wiggins. A few years ago, yeah, they could threaten dirty riders with that, but that would be a much harder trick to pull on a clean rider.

Like I said in my post above, Evans comments give me no confidence. When someone asks me to keep faith, well that pretty much wrecks any hope I might have had, especially with a track record as bad as pro cycling!
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  #567  
Old 11-20-12, 07:34
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Avoriaz Avoriaz is offline
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Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
and the fact that people like Voekler prefer to stay with their team and their coach despite potentially much more lucrative offers elsewhere...

eg: why the hell isn't Ryder getting snapped up by a team with a proper pro budget, and reaping the rewards of his squeaky clean 2012 Giro performance (contract restrictions not withstanding)?
I think for some it isn't all about the money. You often hear the riders talking about their teams as a band of brothers or a family. If a team can build itself up on closeness then it enhances loyalty and makes it more difficult for the stars to leave.

In Voeckler's case, he had more or less already left when BBox went under, and IIRC, Europcar laid a condition that they would sponsor the team if Voeckler was definitely in it. That puts him at the top of the cash pile. Also, as the pretty much undisputed French star, the contracts he gets within France outside the team, should mean he is financially secure for a long time.

This is possibly the case with Hesjedal. If you are happy in the team, and you can get your own endorsements, you don't have to leave.

Thankfully the sport is not like football yet, with individual teams buying up the best riders (though Sky have dipped their toes in these waters a couple of times).
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  #568  
Old 11-20-12, 09:11
18-Valve. (pithy) 18-Valve. (pithy) is offline
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Originally Posted by hrotha View Post
Evans didn't become a contender until the old guard was swept aside by Puerto, by the way.
True, but you seem to treat is as an indication that he was most likely much cleaner than the rest. Correct?

Looking at his VAMs another picture emerges, though. He much improved as a climber in '06 and '07. Regardless of what anyone else did.
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  #569  
Old 11-20-12, 11:58
movingtarget movingtarget is offline
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Originally Posted by 18-Valve. (pithy) View Post
True, but you seem to treat is as an indication that he was most likely much cleaner than the rest. Correct?

Looking at his VAMs another picture emerges, though. He much improved as a climber in '06 and '07. Regardless of what anyone else did.
He was also a relatively inexperienced grand tour rider who could always climb well. Most ex mountain bike riders can : Gadret, Rasmussen, Ryder etc.... Evans would have been expected to improve and seemed to be progressing each year. He was one of the favourites to win the Tour in 2007 and hot favourite in 2008. One mistake in 2007 cost him the win. I don't remember Contador being a hot pick to win in 2007. Evans time trialling was also progressing during those years. Sastre was climbing as well as Evans back then but the TT was his weakness until 2008 when he rode an outstanding TT for him while by Evan's standards he was mediocre. I agree that Evans public statements about doping have been disappointing but no more so than plenty of others currently riding. Expect to see more biographies from retiring riders, spilling their guts or doing a George Hincapie. Hopefully Evans does not do that, not because he has something to hide but because he is telling the truth.
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  #570  
Old 11-21-12, 05:11
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folks. the premise you can see doping is flawed.

flawed^2

cant see it re: Bernhard Kohl exhaustion, or Titi Voeckler grimace, or even Moncoutie "realistic" breakaway.
cant see it re:diopassport.

To think seeing is proof of dirt, not seeing is also not proof of not dirt.

that said, in this sport, evans is as clean a champion there is.
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I just hope that rather than hate, judge, or feel cheated, that our community will choose to do the same - to move forward without forgetting and to ride, not for greed or fame, but for the unbridled joy and love that the simple act of cycling brings us.
that bombastic tosh is courtesy of Allen Lim
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Renton Trainspotting.
Choose Life
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