Wiggins Sports Scientist work for English Rugby - Cyclingnews Forum

Go Back   Cyclingnews Forum > Road > The Clinic

The Clinic The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-20-12, 12:47
Mongol_Waaijer Mongol_Waaijer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 620
Default Wiggins Sports Scientist work for English Rugby

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012...ritish-cycling

As part of their bid to win the next rugby world cup on home soil the England RFU have hired Brad Wiggins's sports scientist.

English rugby is now going down the 'marginal gains' route

There was some suspicion of doping the last time England made a dedicated bid to win the World Cup. They seemed stronger and fitter than the opposition, and at one stage managed to hold off a furious assault on their tryline by New Zealand with 2 forwards in the sin bin.

The NZ media dubbed them 'white orcs on steroids'

If you look at photos of the faces of players from that team you'll see some interesting changes. I wasn't aware there was an exercise that could broaden one's jawbone and forehead.

Interestingly the coach of England during their dominant era was Clive Woodward - who, as Director of Elite Performance for the British Olympian Association, has just overseen GB's most succesful Olympic medal haul ever on home soil.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-20-12, 13:00
hawthorner hawthorner is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2
Default

Well that's proof (of nothing at all), if I ever saw any.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-20-12, 13:04
sniper sniper is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,257
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongol_Waaijer View Post
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012...ritish-cycling

As part of their bid to win the next rugby world cup on home soil the England RFU have hired Brad Wiggins's sports scientist.

English rugby is now going down the 'marginal gains' route

There was some suspicion of doping the last time England made a dedicated bid to win the World Cup. They seemed stronger and fitter than the opposition, and at one stage managed to hold off a furious assault on their tryline by New Zealand with 2 forwards in the sin bin.

The NZ media dubbed them 'white orcs on steroids'

If you look at photos of the faces of players from that team you'll see some interesting changes. I wasn't aware there was an exercise that could broaden one's jawbone and forehead.

Interestingly the coach of England during their dominant era was Clive Woodward - who, as Director of Elite Performance for the British Olympian Association, has just overseen GB's most succesful Olympic medal haul ever on home soil.
marginal gains.

Quote:
"We are obsessed with getting the details right; we are relentless in pursuit of it. It's not easy for other federations to do, because of the details involved. It's about everyone being the best they can be the carer not leaving anything behind, the mechanic testing everything but it's not just two weeks. It's two months, two years. When you put that in place, your chances of success are higher."
I assume it would be extra bitter if you get all those details in place, and you get beaten by a bunch of dopers.

amazing really, with what we know about cycling, how many clinicians still buy that marginal gains crap, at least when JV is selling it.

Interesting detail about Woodward. Spanish practice: put PED-enablers in leading positions at a national level. More and more this is starting to look like state-sponsored doping. The current strength and width of British sports is suspect, I'd say, especially the results in disciplines where they've traditionally been ****ty, e.g. tennis and cycling.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-20-12, 13:16
Mongol_Waaijer Mongol_Waaijer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 620
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper View Post

Interesting detail about Woodward. Spanish practice: put PED-enablers in leading positions at a national level. More and more this is starting to look like state-sponsored doping. The current strength and width of British sports is suspect, I'd say, especially the results in disciplines where they've traditionally been ****ty, e.g. tennis and cycling.
I was long suspicious of rugby, especially the England team under Woodward. They were obsessed with marginal gains and micro management back then way before Brailsford and in just a few seasons went from being unable to challenge NZ and Australia to dominating them. I find it hard to believe that in a collision sport where strength, power and recovery are vital, there was no pushing of the envelope in the direction of a medical program. Especially with rugby's ineffective testing that focusses on recreationals (following the lead from tennis - if we are seen to be busting people for marijuana and cocaine then nooone could assume anyone is getting away with EPO)

Rugby players are now starting to look bigger and more athletic than NFL players, while at least NFL players have the decency to have been huge and ripped all their careers. Many rugby players have undergone such dramatic transformations in recent years it is hardly credible.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-20-12, 13:25
del1962 del1962 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,463
Default

Perhaps Rugby does have a problem but you would hardly put England based on results at the top of the list, I would have more suspicions about Australia and Ireland, and based on the number of people that play Rugby in Scotland (a rural belt south of Glasgow/Edinborough) it amazes mean they can compete in the six nations
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-20-12, 14:48
Mongol_Waaijer Mongol_Waaijer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 620
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by del1962 View Post
Perhaps Rugby does have a problem but you would hardly put England based on results at the top of the list, I would have more suspicions about Australia and Ireland, and based on the number of people that play Rugby in Scotland (a rural belt south of Glasgow/Edinborough) it amazes mean they can compete in the six nations
English rugby has recently tended to be lower priority on attack skills and more into the 'gym bunny' culture than other nations. Forward power has been a strong cultural theme in the English game and the tactics have been based on domination up front at the expense of other areas. Plus the English club league is uniquely brutal and one dimensional compared to the faster paced more mobile Southern hemisphere game.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-20-12, 14:52
JimmyFingers's Avatar
JimmyFingers JimmyFingers is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,854
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongol_Waaijer View Post
I was long suspicious of rugby, especially the England team under Woodward. They were obsessed with marginal gains and micro management back then way before Brailsford and in just a few seasons went from being unable to challenge NZ and Australia to dominating them. I find it hard to believe that in a collision sport where strength, power and recovery are vital, there was no pushing of the envelope in the direction of a medical program. Especially with rugby's ineffective testing that focusses on recreationals (following the lead from tennis - if we are seen to be busting people for marijuana and cocaine then nooone could assume anyone is getting away with EPO)

Rugby players are now starting to look bigger and more athletic than NFL players, while at least NFL players have the decency to have been huge and ripped all their careers. Many rugby players have undergone such dramatic transformations in recent years it is hardly credible.
I think if you are going to make a statement like that in this context you need to quantify it: how many seasons did it take them to develop the squad into one capable of beating the best in the world? Also can you define 'domination'? They won the final with a last minute drop goal.

That England squad in 2003 was veteran, a very-well organised team that had been playing together for years and showed clear progression right up untilt the moment they won it. Or is it only Southern Hemisphere teams that are allowed to do so? 4 years later an unfancied England got to the final again and missed out narrowly to SA. I take it they were on PEDs too? Presumably the squad we sent to NZ had left theirs at home because they were abysmal.

Just to point out, England has the largest rugby union playing population in the world. If anything we consistently under-perform against countries who pick from far-smaller pools of talent. Presumably why they go and nick them from the Pacific Islands
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-20-12, 15:05
Mongol_Waaijer Mongol_Waaijer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 620
Default

I know the final was a close game but they beasted the Aussie scrum all that day.

I also think NZ were humiliated at not being able to power over from 1m out in numerous attempts with 2 extra forwards.

It is more that massive quicktime bulking up of some of the players on that team that concerned me at the time.

But I have concerns about NZ too - I read somewhere that players were putting on several kilos of muscle at a pre season training camp that also involved a great deal of running around. Jerry Collins apparently was asked to lay off the dumbells as his biceps were getting too big to carry the ball properly.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-20-12, 15:35
Mongol_Waaijer Mongol_Waaijer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 620
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyFingers View Post
. Presumably why they go and nick them from the Pacific Islands
England have Manu Tuilagi and Maki Vunipola in their current squad. Born in Samoa and Tonga respectively. Move to England as rugby players to become pro rugby players for English clubs. And number 8 Thomas Waldron was born in NZ and spent all his life there until he realised he wasn't good enough to play for NZ but had an English grandmother. That's 3 nicked from Pacific Islands for you somewhat closer to home.

I believe virtually all the Polynesians who have played for NZ / Aus were either born in NZ or moved there as children, before they even began playing rugby. It also works both ways - a lot of guys who play for Tonga, Samoa or Fiji were born and grew up in NZ.

The reason why there are so many great NZ based rugby players of Polynesian origin is more the coupling of islanders having incredibly suitable physiques for rugby, coupled with being coached as youths in NZ.

If any countries are f&*king over the Pacific islanders right now it's England and France whose clubs won't release Fijian, Tongan and Samoan players for international duty, meaning they have to put out their second XV against top international opposition.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-20-12, 15:50
JVs_jumper JVs_jumper is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4
Default

England success in 2003 was largely due to having the best goal kicker in the game at the time in Wilkinson and their use of the 'un-defendable' truck and trailer which if you tried to stop you would concede a penalty.

The t and t is a classic example of a marginal gain - invent a move that sits between the laws of the game to get enough penalty kicks for your best player to convert. It has since been banned.

Not saying that they weren't rampant roid abusers but there was certainly clever rule interpretation going on...
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:48.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2006 - 2009 Future Publishing Limited. All rights reserved. Future Publishing Limited is part of the Future plc group. Future Publishing Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company registration number 2008885 whose registered office is at Beauford Court 30 Monmouth Street Bath, UK BA1 2BW England.