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  #9011  
Old 11-23-12, 12:13
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Noticed a couple of coincidences recently.

2009: Wiggins 4th at TdF, doing his own thing

2010: Wiggins 21st or something at TdF @ SKy
1. Being micromanaged by Sky - too many advisors - no free time to do his own thing?
2. Padua investigation commenced in Italy - less access to medical help?
3. Only TdF since 2003 where WADA observers were involved.

Was the 2010 TdF "cleaner" for other riders beyond Wiggins? Too late for me to check but wondering, given the points #2 & #3 above if this had any impact at all...
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  #9012  
Old 11-23-12, 12:32
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Originally Posted by martinvickers View Post
Seriously? You really think I care about what people in the Clinic think of me?

The lingua franca of this forum is sarcasm (see Hog); I simply decided to respond in kind. Stings, does it?

Well I've corrected that now.

Every good lawyer knows what you describe is not evidence, it's advocacy. Most mediocre lawyers know it too. Honestly, don't try and teach granny to suck eggs.

My primary objective is, as far as possible in a very, very small way, to help catch and eliminate dopers. No more, no less. For the rather simple reason that I like sport, especially cycling, and I believe, as a matter of faith, that doping poisons sport, especially cycling. I reject, again mostly as a matter of faith, that we should just 'let everyone dope'. If the battle is not in essence one human v another human, stripped to their cores, I just don't see any point in emotional engagement in it - it's just WWE.

In my time here, however, it has become clear that some of those who 'claim' to be anti-doping actually have other agendas that have little enough to do with the truth.

Some clearly dislike doping intensely, but appear distracted by a chip on their shoulder. hatred of one team or another (usually Sky, amusingly enough in an anglophone forum), or one rider or another. This occasionally descends into rather silly conspiracy theories, and a tendency to bend the 'evidence' to fit the theory.

Some just seem to hate the sport. No other way of putting it. They seem to enjoy its agonies. I find that very strange.

Some, quite a few actually, seem to suffer from the delusion that cynicism is the highest form of wisdom. Constantly believing that they and their acolytes with their battle weary eyes see through the veil where other mortals can't. They are the wise, the rest are 'fanboys'.

Someone else (Mary Angelou, maybe?) described as a cynic as someone who has gone from knowing nothing, to believing nothing. It is no improvement.

As we have flagged up, many, many, many times (please tell me you've seen Polcie Acadamy) I have an understanding of what counts as evidence in law. But that is actually not my main concern about the 'evidence', although it's an important concern.

My main concern is the logic of the evidence. Mathematical, whether inductive or deductive, provable and verifiable logic. And that means, in many cases, pulling apart the 'join the dots' approach so beloved of many in here - because it mascarades as logic, but is in fact nothing of the sort - it's pure guilt by association. In other words, witchhunting.

And the more we allow that to go unchallenged, the more the smoke it raises will actually obfiscate the truth. Because it undermines that evidence that is genuinely probative, genuinely logical, and allows people off the hook.
Your 'personalization' approach is not whether you don't care what people think of you, but instead it reflects on your inner personal standards, how you think of yourself (eg. personal dignity). No sting at all by the way, I kind of like sarcasm, particularly as humor or self deprecating, but interesting you start your post by personalizing in a negative way yet again.

Some good stuff in your post, ie your underpinning beliefs re doping, but some diatribe also (sorry), especially the last bits on smoke obfuscating truth.

I think the focus on Sky is because most posters here are anglophiles, as well as the 'clean policy' and 'overwhelming' performance in 2012. And whether you like it or not there is a serious credibility problem with team Sky. And as a granny I won't teach you to suck eggs on what that means for the public trial that is now inevitable and indeed entirely logical considering where the sport has come from.

There are other threads here also that focus on other teams, UCI, etc, but I don't think I have seen you in many of those (although could be wrong).

And maybe some of the Sky criticism is also explained by the fact that many of the senior members here have seen it all for years/decades with names changing but concepts the same. Can't blame them, and over aggressively attacking them only demonstrates lack of past perspective. On cycling, and The Clinic. IMHO.
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  #9013  
Old 11-23-12, 12:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
Noticed a couple of coincidences recently.

2009: Wiggins 4th at TdF, doing his own thing

2010: Wiggins 21st or something at TdF @ SKy
1. Being micromanaged by Sky - too many advisors - no free time to do his own thing?
2. Padua investigation commenced in Italy - less access to medical help?
3. Only TdF since 2003 where WADA observers were involved.

Was the 2010 TdF "cleaner" for other riders beyond Wiggins? Too late for me to check but wondering, given the points #2 & #3 above if this had any impact at all...
According to the recently aired film "A year in Yellow" he was anything but micromanaged in 2010. He claims he went back on the drink, did little training and put on weight whilst lying to Sky as to how much training he was doing. It was only after 2010 that Shane Sutton and Brailsford micromanaged him
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  #9014  
Old 11-23-12, 13:24
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Originally Posted by Spencer the Half Wit View Post
According to the recently aired film "A year in Yellow" he was anything but micromanaged in 2010. He claims he went back on the drink, did little training and put on weight whilst lying to Sky as to how much training he was doing. It was only after 2010 that Shane Sutton and Brailsford micromanaged him
Sssh, you're disputing the widely established facts that Wiggo was juiced in 2009 while riding for Garmin, despite JV saying here on this forum he's certain he was doping at Garmin (and that he isn't doping now), lost the bags in 2010, found them again in 2011 although there's uncertainty there because he crashed out the Tour and came behind Cobo and Froome in the Vuelta, although he did win the Dauphine (beating Cadel Evans, who won the Tour) ebfore getting on a big ol' programme for 2012, along with his buddies
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  #9015  
Old 11-23-12, 13:52
andy1234 andy1234 is offline
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Originally Posted by JimmyFingers View Post
Sssh, you're disputing the widely established facts that Wiggo was juiced in 2009 while riding for Garmin, despite JV saying here on this forum he's certain he was doping at Garmin (and that he isn't doping now), lost the bags in 2010, found them again in 2011 although there's uncertainty there because he crashed out the Tour and came behind Cobo and Froome in the Vuelta, although he did win the Dauphine (beating Cadel Evans, who won the Tour) ebfore getting on a big ol' programme for 2012, along with his buddies
Thats some typo
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  #9016  
Old 11-23-12, 13:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
Noticed a couple of coincidences recently.

2009: Wiggins 4th at TdF, doing his own thing

2010: Wiggins 21st or something at TdF @ SKy
1. Being micromanaged by Sky - too many advisors - no free time to do his own thing?
2. Padua investigation commenced in Italy - less access to medical help?
3. Only TdF since 2003 where WADA observers were involved.

Was the 2010 TdF "cleaner" for other riders beyond Wiggins? Too late for me to check but wondering, given the points #2 & #3 above if this had any impact at all...
Defintion of a coincidence: something that happens by chance in a surprising or remarkable way

It is not all that surprising that a General classification rider in a Grand Tour happens to perform poorly. It happens all the time, this year we can look at the two favourites for the Giro Basso & Scarponi, at the Tour it was riders like Sanchez, Schleck, Gesink, Menchov, Valverde and Evans at the Vuelta it was riders such as Menchov, Anton (to a degree), Monfort etc. So no, that a rider does not perform as well from one Grand Tour to the next is certainly not a coincidence even if considering other factors.
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  #9017  
Old 11-23-12, 14:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyFingers View Post
Sssh, you're disputing the widely established facts that Wiggo was juiced in 2009 while riding for Garmin, despite JV saying here on this forum he's certain he was doping at Garmin (and that he isn't doping now), lost the bags in 2010, found them again in 2011 although there's uncertainty there because he crashed out the Tour and came behind Cobo and Froome in the Vuelta, although he did win the Dauphine (beating Cadel Evans, who won the Tour) ebfore getting on a big ol' programme for 2012, along with his buddies
To be objective it should be considered that Wiggins did not train in preparation for the Tour under the auspices of Garmin, but rather in Manchester and other places under British Cycling..

But to be honest if JV says Wiggins was not doping I would take that as proof that Wiggins was not doping..
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  #9018  
Old 11-23-12, 14:06
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Originally Posted by Froome19 View Post
But to be honest if JV says Wiggins was not doping I would take that as proof that Wiggins was not doping..
good for you, a walking talking human polygraph.
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  #9019  
Old 11-23-12, 14:11
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Originally Posted by blackcat View Post
good for you, a walking talking human polygraph.
I choose to believe JV because his comments and his actions in my eyes seem to indicate a level of truthfulness, just my opinion though.

You do not choose to believe what JV because his actions and opinions seem to be lies in your eyes, good for you..

Though personally I would say I have more justification to say that JV is telling the truth than you do to say JV is not telling the truth
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  #9020  
Old 11-23-12, 14:44
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Originally Posted by Tinman View Post
I wouldn't be so sure of that yet. Sky 2013 lineup not yet announced, Padua investigation not yet concluded, and ASADA just getting started also.
Well I suppose then we can see if Rogers gets censured that way, rather than waiting for Sky to deal with him, which as has been shown is difficult for them.
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