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General Which tyres for Paris-Roubaix? Whose time trial bike is fastest? Suspension mountain bikes or singlespeeders? Talk equipment here.

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  #61  
Old 11-23-12, 01:30
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oncehadhair oncehadhair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuseppe Magnetico View Post
No way in the world you can attribute that time split to a tire because of what an indoor lab test that doesn't recreate real conditions is telling you. A million other factors are defining those times.

I respect you Alex, you've put in a lot of time on and off the bike to promote the sport and you are to be commended. Several of the last 22 years I've worked this industry in marketing and consulting of wheel specific goods, and have sat across the table with companies that have laundry lists of professional race wins, sponsoring the who's who of racers telling me flat out "we have to lie if this is going to sell"! Keep that in mind when you empty your wallet for the sake of chasing the all mighty Unicorn. In the last few years I have since dissociated myself from the kind of work I used to do due to ethical reasons and ran back quickly to what I love to do most, is build wheels that make sense. I'm completely aware that I'm the Atheist in the room of a bunch of religious fanatics.
Gotto agree with you there.
No way can that time difference be claimed on tyres when there are so many other variables. Not a lot of science in that claim.
And rolling billboards will often have the sponsors name on an opposition product if the opposition product is perceived to be better.
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  #62  
Old 11-23-12, 03:15
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Alex Simmons/RST Alex Simmons/RST is offline
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Originally Posted by oncehadhair View Post
Gotto agree with you there.
No way can that time difference be claimed on tyres when there are so many other variables. Not a lot of science in that claim.
Yet if all the other factors are the same, and you get to make one change that improves speed, I don't know how you can make any other claim. That would be a lack of science. A lack of science would be to think that using a different set of tyres results in a rider trying more/less hard, or the wind conditions to be different etc etc.

For example, what if the change was a use of more aerodynamic wheelset? Does it mean that a claim same rider could have improved speed in his TT from such a change is also invalid? That would make equally less sense.

Hence why it bemuses me to suggest why one can't state that better choice of tyres can make a difference to an outcome, when it's very clear that they can (and do).

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Originally Posted by oncehadhair View Post
And rolling billboards will often have the sponsors name on an opposition product if the opposition product is perceived to be better.
Sure, it's well know pros ride all sorts of re-branded equipment, but what's that got to do with the point of testing which tyre is better?

I have no tyre brand loyalty, and have not pushed any particular brand or type of tyre here. All I have said is that tyre choice can and does make a difference to speed.
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  #63  
Old 11-23-12, 13:40
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Originally Posted by Alex Simmons/RST View Post
Yet if all the other factors are the same, and you get to make one change that improves speed, I don't know how you can make any other claim. That would be a lack of science. A lack of science would be to think that using a different set of tyres results in a rider trying more/less hard, or the wind conditions to be different etc etc.

For example, what if the change was a use of more aerodynamic wheelset? Does it mean that a claim same rider could have improved speed in his TT from such a change is also invalid? That would make equally less sense.

Hence why it bemuses me to suggest why one can't state that better choice of tyres can make a difference to an outcome, when it's very clear that they can (and do).


Sure, it's well know pros ride all sorts of re-branded equipment, but what's that got to do with the point of testing which tyre is better?

I have no tyre brand loyalty, and have not pushed any particular brand or type of tyre here. All I have said is that tyre choice can and does make a difference to speed.
I think his point is...yes, take a bike 'thing', test it in controlled situations, and the results DO say one will be faster, better, lighter, stiffer, what-er than the other BUT, then put a person on the bike, who will exhibit varying degrees of performance, one day to the next, and the objective results get fuzzy.

Like wind tunnel testing a frame, bike and publishing the results..and then implying that if anybody gets on the thing, they will automatically be faster.

Well, they may be but because of whatever reason, they may be slower.

BUT objectively, it is most often seen by marketeers as a way to sell 'stuff'.

I don't think you could ever point to a piece of equipment and say definitively
it was responsible for any 'outcome'...unless that widget broke, of course, which effects outcomes all the time.
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  #64  
Old 11-23-12, 16:07
acoggan acoggan is offline
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Originally Posted by Bustedknuckle View Post
I think his point is...yes, take a bike 'thing', test it in controlled situations, and the results DO say one will be faster, better, lighter, stiffer, what-er than the other BUT, then put a person on the bike, who will exhibit varying degrees of performance, one day to the next, and the objective results get fuzzy.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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  #65  
Old 11-23-12, 21:12
winkybiker winkybiker is offline
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Originally Posted by acoggan View Post
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
And controlling for other variables does not invalidate conclusions. Actually it is essential for conclusions to be valid. If on the basis of two real-world time trials results that a certain tyre was faster, I'd be correctly laughed out of the room. I have no experimental, nor statistical method of really figuring out why the times were different. However, if I control all other variables by testing in the lab, then my results are valid. Just because the noise of real world variables makes differences in tyre performance impossible to measure, doesn't mean they're not real.
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  #66  
Old 11-24-12, 00:23
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Thanks for the HBD wishes! Now back to regularly scheduled programming.

Tire selection from brand to brand of comparable models is not determining the order of a podium, neither is aerodynamics, stiffness, or weight. Saving 50g somewhere on your machine over a competitors only means you're 50g lighter, nothing else. A slightly reduced frontal aero signature of a brand X frame over brand Y make look like a big difference in a wind tunnel, but the rider on brand X isn't guaranteed a win because of what a lab came up with, nor are their chances better because of it. Manufacturers know that most people believe what they see and read, so all this lab testing has done, even the independent ones, is create a bunch of dogmatic ninnys regurgitating lab results as if it were the New Testament believing that they're the Chosen Ones because a Conti GP4000s vs. Vittoria Open Corsa CX is a better choice on paper. The manufacturers spend millions on marketing and sponsorship every year to make you believe their whateverTECH is the best, and no matter how much marketing mADness you infuse into a sport like this races are always going to be won by whoever has got the best legs that day.
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Last edited by Giuseppe Magnetico; 11-24-12 at 00:26.
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  #67  
Old 11-24-12, 00:31
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A TT decided by less than a second and you clowns are trying to say it's nothing to do with Aero or CRR? lol
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  #68  
Old 11-24-12, 00:42
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A TT decided by less than a second and you clowns are trying to say it's nothing to do with Aero or CRR? lol
Competitor A took a slightly different line in a few corners compared to competitor B. A had better positioning on the bike than B, A and B share almost identical athletic performance, the time is reflected there. A boffed his wife the night before, that's a no-no in this sport. Pick one, that's all it takes, has nothing to do with the gear.
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Last edited by Giuseppe Magnetico; 11-24-12 at 00:51.
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  #69  
Old 11-24-12, 01:30
twothirds twothirds is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuseppe Magnetico View Post
Competitor A took a slightly different line in a few corners compared to competitor B. A had better positioning on the bike than B, A and B share almost identical athletic performance, the time is reflected there. A boffed his wife the night before, that's a no-no in this sport. Pick one, that's all it takes, has nothing to do with the gear.
I have to slightly disagree with this. Although all those points are true, a constant is still a constant. Just because the result cannot be definitively or quantitatively attributed to a certain aspect of one's set-up doesn't mean that it wasn't a contributing factor. Saying a tire that's 1% faster doesn't matter is like saying a rear brake that is rubbing ever so slightly also has no effect. It may not have lost the race for you if you were a minute and a half down, but if you had lost it by a second and found out about the brake rub, I'd bet that you would definitely check that more carefully before your next race.
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  #70  
Old 11-24-12, 01:45
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What I learned from this thread: That high falutin science stuff don't work in no real world. Dat only work in a lab.
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