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General Which tyres for Paris-Roubaix? Whose time trial bike is fastest? Suspension mountain bikes or singlespeeders? Talk equipment here.

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  #71  
Old 11-24-12, 01:51
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Originally Posted by twothirds View Post
I have to slightly disagree with this. Although all those points are true, a constant is still a constant. Just because the result cannot be definitively or quantitatively attributed to a certain aspect of one's set-up doesn't mean that it wasn't a contributing factor. Saying a tire that's 1% faster doesn't matter is like saying a rear brake that is rubbing ever so slightly also has no effect. It may not have lost the race for you if you were a minute and a half down, but if you had lost it by a second and found out about the brake rub, I'd bet that you would definitely check that more carefully before your next race.
There is no constant in cycling, not even the course or track. When you have a result like M Sport pointed out, less than a second, the bible thumpers will, like a knee jerk reaction credit the gear instead of realizing that those were actually two different people racing, not clones on different equipment. A bad set up is one thing, but to assume that decimal point of a sec finish is attributed to lets say, tire selection, to stay on topic, you may be a bit brainwashed. Everything, I mean EVERYTHING else would have to be EQUAL to declare that it was this or that piece of equipment won the race. So with reality as my witness, THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE!
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Last edited by Giuseppe Magnetico; 11-24-12 at 03:30.
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  #72  
Old 11-24-12, 02:10
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What I learned from this thread: That high falutin science stuff don't work in no real world. Dat only work in a lab.
These are bicycles, not F1 cars or GP bikes. The "science" only goes so far in our world.
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Old 11-24-12, 03:28
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Originally Posted by Giuseppe Magnetico View Post
These are bicycles, not F1 cars or GP bikes. The "science" only goes so far in our world.
I put my trust in bro-science. It seldom fails but when it does, the results are often hilarious.
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  #74  
Old 11-24-12, 03:36
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I put my trust in bro-science. It seldom fails but when it does, the results are often hilarious.
Like wet paint and bicycle tires?
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  #75  
Old 11-24-12, 06:12
twothirds twothirds is offline
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I'll just get this out of the way first. I'm no gear junkie or weight-weenie. My newest bike is eight years old, my track bike is steel, and when I was racing I was regularly beating competitors on "nicer" equipment. Was I meticulous about the condition of my gear and looking after it? Yes, everything was dialed in. This was just as much about efficiency as it was about safety. You don't want anything breaking on you mid F200.

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Originally Posted by Giuseppe Magnetico View Post
Everything, I mean EVERYTHING else would have to be EQUAL to declare that it was this or that piece of equipment won the race. So with reality as my witness, THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE!
Yes, that is true. I never argued that. You're not going to be able to replicate or equalize things perfectly. It's quite possible for the guy on the faster equipment to have his "advantage" negated by a gust of wind (if we're talking about small finishing margins).

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Originally Posted by Giuseppe Magnetico View Post
There is no constant in cycling, not even the course or track.
Indoors. Two competitors in a pursuit on the "same" track at the "same" time. How are the track surface and environmental conditions not constants? I get that out on a TT course between different riders the wind shifts, the weather conditions can change, riders take different lines. Those aren't constants.

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Originally Posted by Giuseppe Magnetico View Post
When you have a result like M Sport pointed out, less than a second, the bible thumpers will, like a knee jerk reaction credit the gear instead of realizing that those were actually two different people racing, not clones on different equipment. A bad set up is one thing, but to assume that decimal point of a sec finish is attributed to lets say, tire selection, to stay on topic, you may be a bit brainwashed.
I never said that the finish was attributed SOLELY to equipment choice. I just said that it CONTRIBUTED to it. I get that this isn't a lab test and that the environment is constantly changing.

If you read what I actually wrote in my previous post you would've seen that was the point I was making was that of contribution vs. attribution. The tech geeks can defend the equipment and it's effect all they want. The old school purist will immediately say that the equipment doesn't matter. They are both right and both wrong at the same time.

How efficiently a bicycle outputs the energy that's put through it matters. An improvement or decline anywhere in that system has an effect, no matter the external variables. Brake rub, rolling resistance, it all matters. Physics is physics.
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  #76  
Old 11-24-12, 14:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twothirds View Post
I'll just get this out of the way first. I'm no gear junkie or weight-weenie. My newest bike is eight years old, my track bike is steel, and when I was racing I was regularly beating competitors on "nicer" equipment. Was I meticulous about the condition of my gear and looking after it? Yes, everything was dialed in. This was just as much about efficiency as it was about safety. You don't want anything breaking on you mid F200.



Yes, that is true. I never argued that. You're not going to be able to replicate or equalize things perfectly. It's quite possible for the guy on the faster equipment to have his "advantage" negated by a gust of wind (if we're talking about small finishing margins).



Indoors. Two competitors in a pursuit on the "same" track at the "same" time. How are the track surface and environmental conditions not constants? I get that out on a TT course between different riders the wind shifts, the weather conditions can change, riders take different lines. Those aren't constants.



I never said that the finish was attributed SOLELY to equipment choice. I just said that it CONTRIBUTED to it. I get that this isn't a lab test and that the environment is constantly changing.

If you read what I actually wrote in my previous post you would've seen that was the point I was making was that of contribution vs. attribution. The tech geeks can defend the equipment and it's effect all they want. The old school purist will immediately say that the equipment doesn't matter. They are both right and both wrong at the same time.

How efficiently a bicycle outputs the energy that's put through it matters. An improvement or decline anywhere in that system has an effect, no matter the external variables. Brake rub, rolling resistance, it all matters. Physics is physics.
So is biology.

A $lotsa$ F1 or GP engine doesn't have the same output hour to hour...don't expect a person to.
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  #77  
Old 11-24-12, 14:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuseppe Magnetico View Post
These are bicycles, not F1 cars or GP bikes. The "science" only goes so far in our world.
Ron Hayles allegedely once said that when he was doing wind tunnel testing, he put his aero helmet on backwards for a laugh and it made no diifference.
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  #78  
Old 11-25-12, 00:20
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Originally Posted by Bustedknuckle View Post
So is biology.

A $lotsa$ F1 or GP engine doesn't have the same output hour to hour...don't expect a person to.
So why don't all you people go and ride with big fat knobby MTB type tyres at 30psi on your TT rigs? According to some on here, it would make no difference to an individual's result.

In the case of my TT, I think our start times were either 1-min or 2-min apart.

Simple fact is, had my competitor used better tyres, his ride in all probability would have been somewhat faster. I can't see how having different tyres would have substantially changes his physiological performance on the day.

In the long run he improved and went on to win a world championship and Gold medal at London 2012. Good on him (nice young guy too).
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  #79  
Old 11-25-12, 06:18
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You guys have any thoughts on coarse chip seal roads and 25 or 23 preferred? Eg. riding in NZ and Australia. Riding GP4000 clinchers on Fulcrum racing zeros mostly, and EVO CX tubs on 50/80 mm carbon rims for the special days. But both wheelsets 23's. Weight 70 kg. Carbon frames; thin seat stay Chinarello roadbike (FM015), Cervelo P2 tribike.
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  #80  
Old 11-25-12, 10:37
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Originally Posted by Alex Simmons/RST View Post
So why don't all you people go and ride with big fat knobby MTB type tyres at 30psi on your TT rigs? According to some on here, it would make no difference to an individual's result.

In the case of my TT, I think our start times were either 1-min or 2-min apart.

Simple fact is, had my competitor used better tyres, his ride in all probability would have been somewhat faster. I can't see how having different tyres would have substantially changes his physiological performance on the day.

In the long run he improved and went on to win a world championship and Gold medal at London 2012. Good on him (nice young guy too).
Wiggins won London 2012 but not the worlds unless you mean Brownlee.Either way I'm impressed.
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