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  #601  
Old 11-23-12, 18:36
Tyler'sTwin Tyler'sTwin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maltiv View Post
That's exactly what most people are doing on various Norwegian forums right now. They're using precisely the same arguments as Armstrong did..."he's just jealous, the Finns are bitter and have no credibility" etc. Also some threats against the source in true Armstrong-style.
Show them Bengt Saltin's IDAN-presentation from -06.

Visions,plans and hopes can the doping culture be changed?

Slide14:

Quote:
1995; some skiers had 20 g/100 ml with all medal winners above 17.5 g /100 ml
From 1997 upper allowed limit for men 18.5 g/100 ml
1999 some 30 male skiers between 17.0- 18.7 g/100 ml; medal winners > 17.0 g/100ml
http://www.powershow.com/view/5bbd2-...t_presentation

Norwegian individual medal winners @ Thunder Bay in -95: Bjørn Dæhlie (3xsilver)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIS_Nor...pionships_1995

Norwegian individual medal winners @ Ramsau in -99: Bjørn Dæhlie (1xbronze), Odd-Bjørn Hjelmeset (1xbronze) and Thomas Alsgaard (1xgold, 1xsilver).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIS_Nor...pionships_1999

Proof that Bengt Saltin is the man behind the presentation:

Quote:
Visions,plans and hopes;can the doping culture be changed?
http://www.idan.dk/upload/odense.ppt
http://www.ppt2txt.com/dm/www.idan.dk

Quote:
Idrættens Analyseinstitut - Dopingkonference i Odense

Succes for blodprofiler i skisport

Netop blodprofiler har ifølge professor Bengt Saltin, Institut for Idræt og Biomekanik, SDU, vist sit værd i langrendssporten, hvor man bruger metoden til at opdage unormale afvigelser i antallet af røde blodlegemer og sikre sig mod helbredsfarlige niveauer. Saltin er formand for det internationale skiforbunds (FIS) medicinske komité.

Ændringer i en udøvers blodprofil udløser ikke en sanktion for doping, højst en midlertidig udelukkelse af helbredsårsager. Men blodprofilerne kan bruges til at målrette den egentlige dopingkontrol mod udøvere med mistænkelige værdier. I dag ligger langrendsfeltets gennemsnitlige hæmoglobinniveau da også væsentligt under niveauet i 1990'erne.

Forbundets brug af blodprofiler fik i øvrigt grønt lys af den internationale sportsdomstol, CAS, da man under vintersol i Torino behandlede det internationale skiforbunds helbredsbegrundede udelukkelse af 12 langrendsløbere med for høje hæmoglobinværdier.

Ifølge Saltin kan hovedparten, om end ikke alle, sagerne fra vinter-OL forklares med skiløbernes massive satsning på højdetræning inden vinter-OL. Samtidig nærer Bengt Saltin ingen illusioner om, at skisporten er fri for misbrug af stoffer som EPO og Nesp.

”Der er sket en sofistikering. Atleterne forsvinder i 4-5 dage. Hvis kontrollen dukker uanmeldt op, får de højst en advarsel for ikke at være på det angivne sted. Derefter vedligeholder de niveauet med stoffet albumin, som ikke kan spores,” sagde Bengt Saltin.

Med andre ord kan man sagtens være dopet med EPO eller Nesp, selv om man holder sig under den angivne hæmatokritværdi.
Quote:
Se Bengt Saltins oplæg fra Odense [Links to http://idan.dk/upload/odense.ppt]
http://idan.dk/Nyheder/122dopingkonf...=False&emneID=

Feel free to point out that OBH told Dagbladet his normal Hb is 14.5 and his peak is 15.6.

http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/2001/03/06/245493.html

Last edited by Tyler'sTwin; 11-23-12 at 21:10.
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  #602  
Old 11-23-12, 20:05
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Quote:
Feel free to point out that OBH told Dagbladet his normal Hb is 14.5 and his peak is 15.6.
Maybe thats why he couldnt win anything in the 90s? Why did you mention him btw?
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  #603  
Old 11-23-12, 21:09
Tyler'sTwin Tyler'sTwin is offline
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Originally Posted by the sceptic View Post
Maybe thats why he couldnt win anything in the 90s? Why did you mention him btw?
I suggest you read my post again. Maybe you'll get it this time?
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  #604  
Old 11-23-12, 21:12
Tyler'sTwin Tyler'sTwin is offline
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Here's a hint.

Quote:
1995; some skiers had 20 g/100 ml with all medal winners above 17.5 g /100 ml
From 1997 upper allowed limit for men 18.5 g/100 ml
1999 some 30 male skiers between 17.0- 18.7 g/100 ml; medal winners > 17.0 g/100ml
Quote:
Norwegian individual medal winners @ Ramsau in -99: Bjørn Dæhlie (1xbronze), Odd-Bjørn Hjelmeset (1xbronze) and Thomas Alsgaard (1xgold, 1xsilver).
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  #605  
Old 11-23-12, 23:32
Tyler'sTwin Tyler'sTwin is offline
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Apparently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arto Halonen
- Bengt Saltin, director of the Medical Committee of the FIS in 2002, says in the film that many members of the committee used their positions to manipulate and to communicate information to their country men. Such was the atmosphere in 2002, according Saltin.
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  #606  
Old 11-23-12, 23:51
Tyler'sTwin Tyler'sTwin is offline
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Quote:
Finnish coach dislikes that doctors receive prize money

Gällivare (VG) Finland's norwegian coach, Magnar Dalen, is skeptical of countries where doctors get commission and part of the prize money pot.

The Finland coach believes the problem of doping in some places is that athletes have no choice, and then points towards Eastern Europe, and describes it as tragic.

- Doctors are working on commission and gets their share of the prize money, it is not entirely uncommon. Then there can be many people who have interests. In cycling it works the same way, they share the pot, says Dalen.

- Thos of us who work in the sport day after day know who tampers. There is a barometer of whether you are clean, if you keep a similar level throughout the entire season, you keep the same level during the season opener, the Tour de Ski, the championship and the season finale, I'm very confident about those competitors, says Dalen and added:

- But those skiers who keep a low level, then have one or two good weekends, then low again, then perform on a high-level at championships, then I'm skeptical. The worst example is Johann Mühlegg. There were many who understood that something was wrong before the Olympics in 2002, but it is impossible to say anything until you have proof, says Dalen.
http://translate.google.se/translate...tid%3D10071444

Good news & bad news. Wiggins is clean, but Froome is dirty.
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  #607  
Old 11-24-12, 02:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler'sTwin View Post
I suggest you read my post again. Maybe you'll get it this time?
Im sorry sir, i will try harder next time
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  #608  
Old 11-24-12, 12:06
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the war of words around the finnish film is far more telling of what the doping problem is about than the actual truth if the norge skiers were indeed blood doping.

some official statements are so painfully familiar to any clinic regular that one has to only interchange fis with uci and one wada lab director with another…the only difference being that fis has no concrete name to threaten to sue in court because the whisle blower has chosen to remain anonymous. I will let 'them' talk (translated from various sources in swedish)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fis secretary-general sarah lewis
we need solid reasons for re-analysis. anonymous allegations are merit-less…
Quote:
Originally Posted by fis vice president sverre seeberg
... it is essential to open the source before the matter should be even considered
Quote:
Originally Posted by director of the Norwegian wada lab ingunn hull stein
there is not a single sample left, all were destroyed as they were negative
though technically speaking she is absolutely correct, she sounded as she was relieved of a fear rather than expressing her scientific or professional duty.

one opinion in the documentary was also painfully familiar as if it was expressed in post-puerto spain rather than finnland... the opinion that proved correct over and over regardless of who owned the voice cords..
Quote:
Originally Posted by kari-pekka kyrö
athletes and managers will tell the truth only to the police or in court. a hearing within the sport makes no sense
again, this post is NOT about the norge athletes but about the spineless sporting officials who suddenly become disinterested in the dirty past even though they know saltin told them the truth !

i can only take solace in the fact that there is so far no evidence they have actively covered up positives like verbruggen
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Last edited by python; 11-24-12 at 12:09.
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  #609  
Old 11-24-12, 12:45
Tyler'sTwin Tyler'sTwin is offline
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Martin Johnsrud-Sundby: - For me, Lance will always be a great hero. He is the best of those who, if he was doped, doped at the time.

- He has done great things for the sport, but also for the cancer organization "Livestrong" he has built up. He is an amazing athlete and an amazing man.

- I think we should stop the witch hunt against him. For it to have been justified, they must have caught him while he was still active, not ten years later.

- It is too cowardly to catch him retrospectively.

http://translate.google.se/translate...stor-1.8356314
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  #610  
Old 11-24-12, 13:45
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good posts lately, tyler's twin and python. the similarity of the talking points, rhetorics and tactics in the PR game of omerta in both sports is hilarious indeed.

the saltin slides contain good info about the 90s and are very damning, to me at least. in any case they once again show that, just as in social sciences for example, historical, statistical and aggregted povs should be embraced more in the discussions about doping. VAMs and w/kg markers might be inaccurate, but at least they lend a rough framework for reflection in cycling.

also i think, obviously, that the kyrö quote is spot on. hopefully the documentary continues to hit some sore points abroad as well. in finland the layman repsonse has been largely that it is no use to dig dirt from the past, which is quite understandable yet unsustainable. at the same time there is high demand for results, etc., so BS as usual. all the

many sportsfans also seem to think that the documentary is basically anti-nationalist, which is funny and telling at the same time. nationalism is a very large factor in the doping picture IMO. right there with money, though functioning as an umbrella. in finland it provides a cancer shield of sorts, thus blocking discussions or rendering them very biased.

as for dalen's comments, I think they were generally spot on, though perhaps a bit careless too if read in context. for in recent year one of the archetypes of the racers he calls suspicious for hitting it off once or twice a season has been matti heikkinen.

oh, congrats for the win today, mr sundby. hope you had the special bracelet on.
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