"Change Cycling Now" - Page 13 - Cyclingnews Forum

Go Back   Cyclingnews Forum > Road > The Clinic

The Clinic The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #121  
Old 12-02-12, 19:32
Dr. Maserati Dr. Maserati is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,035
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by martinvickers View Post
Not 'one swimmer' - an olympic medalist of very recent vintage, and one who continues to compete.

and some stats? Well, here's aone with Tennis, for example.

Tennis V Cycling; a drug test regime comparison



Let's add swimming to the mix, whatdaya say?

Yin and swimming doping controls



The phrase, howdya like them apples, springs to mind...
Ack, please with the juvenile barp.

But to use it as an analogy - you are comparing apples and oranges.
You have brought in the overall numbers of tests, and at first look cycling wins - but (&this is my point that you miss) is that many of those stats are not dope tests, they form part of the biological passport.

I don't actually have the time to check this - but if you check the WADA site which lists tests per sport cycling does not have the most testing - is it better than many others? Yip, but to suggest that cycling is anyway ahead of all sports is just PR fluff spun by the UCI that is never checked by most media.
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 12-02-12, 20:00
martinvickers martinvickers is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Ireland
Posts: 2,861
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Maserati View Post
Ack, please with the juvenile barp.
What can i tell ya?

Quote:
But to use it as an analogy - you are comparing apples and oranges.
You have brought in the overall numbers of tests, and at first look cycling wins - but (&this is my point that you miss) is that many of those stats are not dope tests, they form part of the biological passport.
But I have confirmed swimming uses the biological passport programme, ans still has only a fraction of the tests.

Andas for those sports who don't use the passport - is that not kinda conclusive proof the cycling is ahead if them?

Quote:
I don't actually have the time to check this - but if you check the WADA site which lists tests per sport cycling does not have the most testing - is it better than many others? Yip, but to suggest that cycling is anyway ahead of all sports is just PR fluff spun by the UCI that is never checked by most media.
Which was my original point, before you tried to tell me I was wrong.

From the 2011 WADA OOC figures they are -
4th on Out of comp (OOC) Urine, way behind weightlifting, just behind track and swimming, well ahead of rest
1st on OOC EPO testing, by a clear margin
Now the worrying ones - they are roughly sixth-eighth on both blood and hGH

On the total annual samples taken - cycling is third behind track and football - I'd have been stunned if it was ahead of football given the numbers who play football around the world - track, oddly, consistently scores highly - possibly because they've had the same problems, and responses, as cycling (think 1980's GDR, US sprinters etc)

Interestingly, the 'ping' number from cycling was the HIGHEST of any sport, and the fifth highest rate after pro basketball (who knew?) and boxing, weightlifting (the shock!) and, wait for it, Curling!

There's something in the Ice, bro, something in the Ice!!


As I said, I'm very much broadly sympathetic with what you feel, honestly, but you were attacking a strawman from the getgo.
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 12-02-12, 20:23
Dear Wiggo's Avatar
Dear Wiggo Dear Wiggo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Sunny Australia
Posts: 5,582
Default

Is it possible the more testing carried out the better people get at beating the tests?

How many internal team tests are conducted, and what impact does that have on the effectiveness of ABP testing? Garmin are huge on internal testing, and we have to accept the word of a lying ex-doper that if he ever caught someone he would fire them. Because he has never fired anyone, the assumption is he has never caught someone, but on the balance of probabilities, given the history of the people employed there, I find this too hard to swallow (that no Garmin rider has at any time ever doped). Add in all the alleged "mistakes" and other semi-truths from this ex-doper and my ability to believe is diminished even further. Add in the companies that can do similar testing externally, as a means of tracking parameters, and uh I'm entirely convinced it's all a smoke screen.
__________________
Letters to and from the pro peloton. twitter | blog

Last edited by Dear Wiggo; 12-02-12 at 20:26.
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 12-02-12, 20:45
D-Queued D-Queued is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,416
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by martinvickers View Post
Yes, that was the point more or less Dr M was making. And as I said, that's irrelevant to the point i'm making, which is much narrower.

They aren't at odds.

Look, in simple terms.

from 1-100, 4 is a low number, a very low number, in the lowest 1/25 of numbers in fact.

It's still twice as big as 2.

So arguing, but 4 is SOO low, i give no credit to 4, while all very true, isn't really relevant to the very basic point I'm making - it's twice as big as 2.

Or to put it another way, it's meaningless to challenge a comparative that it's not a superlative.
Yup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinman View Post
The website is up. You can add your support. Presumably more content coming over the next few days.

http://www.changecyclingnow.org/
Cool!

A constructive critique: "The petition won't be used for any legal purpose" could be interpreted to mean that it could be used for an illegal purpose.

Might be better to note that the petition will not be used as part of any legal proceeding(s).

Dave.
__________________

Lance says he will cooperate with Landis Investigation


"I've done too many good things for too many people"
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 12-02-12, 21:08
Dr. Maserati Dr. Maserati is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,035
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by martinvickers View Post
What can i tell ya?



But I have confirmed swimming uses the biological passport programme, ans still has only a fraction of the tests.

Andas for those sports who don't use the passport - is that not kinda conclusive proof the cycling is ahead if them?



Which was my original point, before you tried to tell me I was wrong.

From the 2011 WADA OOC figures they are -
4th on Out of comp (OOC) Urine, way behind weightlifting, just behind track and swimming, well ahead of rest
1st on OOC EPO testing, by a clear margin
Now the worrying ones - they are roughly sixth-eighth on both blood and hGH

On the total annual samples taken - cycling is third behind track and football - I'd have been stunned if it was ahead of football given the numbers who play football around the world - track, oddly, consistently scores highly - possibly because they've had the same problems, and responses, as cycling (think 1980's GDR, US sprinters etc)

Interestingly, the 'ping' number from cycling was the HIGHEST of any sport, and the fifth highest rate after pro basketball (who knew?) and boxing, weightlifting (the shock!) and, wait for it, Curling!

There's something in the Ice, bro, something in the Ice!!


As I said, I'm very much broadly sympathetic with what you feel, honestly, but you were attacking a strawman from the getgo.
First up - I did a brief search on swimming and the Bio Passport, it would appear that swimming have adopted a "pilot programme".
That would explain why an athlete would not know that the sport has it.

Secondly - the highlighted above is quite different from your earlier posts:
Quote:
I think in trying to emphasize his understandable contempt for the UCI and it's actions, Dr Maserati overstretched a little, and attacked an argument I didn't actually make.

My point was pretty limited - other sports don't come close to matching what cycling already does re doping.

That is not to suggest for one second that cycling is close to clean. Sadly, cycling culture is such that dopers are light years ahead of any testing, let alone the pathetic testing standards set up by UCI.

But it's just statistically and anecdotally observable that other sports standards are even worse.
That is why I said you were merely repeating PR fluff and your own research shows your earlier points as being incorrect.
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old 12-02-12, 21:18
martinvickers martinvickers is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Ireland
Posts: 2,861
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
Is it possible the more testing carried out the better people get at beating the tests?.
That's exactly my point - that if anything, it's the anti-anti-doping in cycling that leaves the world for dead.
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old 12-02-12, 21:22
martinvickers martinvickers is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Ireland
Posts: 2,861
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Maserati View Post
First up - I did a brief search on swimming and the Bio Passport, it would appear that swimming have adopted a "pilot programme".
That would explain why an athlete would not know that the sport has it.
FINA have the pilot, as far as I know. Other nat feds have been using them on and off for some time. Still, if FINA is only getting round to a pilot now, is than not kind proof positive that cycling is currently ahead of it?

Quote:
Secondly - the highlighted above is quite different from your earlier posts:

That is why I said you were merely repeating PR fluff and your own research shows your earlier points as being incorrect.
I'm sorry, but it patently doesn't - my limited research shows cycling tests more, test more OOC, catches more, and catches a higher rate than most but not all other sports - a simple point, and proven.

You're still trying to argue against an argument I never made. It really would be better to just accept my point was limited like i always said, and i made it stick.
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old 12-02-12, 21:56
Dr. Maserati Dr. Maserati is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,035
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by martinvickers View Post
FINA have the pilot, as far as I know. Other nat feds have been using them on and off for some time. Still, if FINA is only getting round to a pilot now, is than not kind proof positive that cycling is currently ahead of it?
You keep twisting your point - you were comparing testing numbers and stated that swimming have the Biological Passport. Now you are not sure?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by martinvickers View Post
I'm sorry, but it patently doesn't - my limited research shows cycling tests more, test more OOC, catches more, and catches a higher rate than most but not all other sports - a simple point, and proven.

You're still trying to argue against an argument I never made. It really would be better to just accept my point was limited like i always said, and i made it stick.
I quoted your arguments - even when you tried to narrow it, I stated it was still incorrect.
You made an earlier point that is just PR guff -when you actually checked the claims it shows you were incorrect, if you want to keep making juvenile comments then stick in the Sky thread.
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old 12-02-12, 22:27
martinvickers martinvickers is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Ireland
Posts: 2,861
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Maserati View Post
You keep twisting your point - you were comparing testing numbers and stated that swimming have the Biological Passport. Now you are not sure?!
Where did I say I wasn't sure? I'm aware of the FINA pilot - I'm also aware of a number of national programs - which bit of that isn't sure?


Quote:
I quoted your arguments - even when you tried to narrow it, I stated it was still incorrect.
You made an earlier point that is just PR guff -when you actually checked the claims it shows you were incorrect, if you want to keep making juvenile comments then stick in the Sky thread.
I'm really not sure how i can help you further on this.

What did I say that was incorrect? In simple terms, please quote what I said that was incorrect?
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old 12-03-12, 01:00
Carols's Avatar
Carols Carols is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: PA, USA
Posts: 3,279
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GazelleFormula View Post
Wow! Very strong words being used...likens the UCI to LA; intimidating, bullying. Says both riders and sponsors afraid to step forward due to UCI repercussions.

Go CCN!!!
__________________
Carol S.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Alberto Contador of Pinto: "And yes, it is true that for me it's the same to finish second or 10th."

Vincezo Nibali makes history and joins Anquetil, Gimondi, Merckx, Hinault and Contador as only the 6th winner of all Three Grand Tours! Bravo Lo Squalo!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:25.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2006 - 2009 Future Publishing Limited. All rights reserved. Future Publishing Limited is part of the Future plc group. Future Publishing Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company registration number 2008885 whose registered office is at Beauford Court 30 Monmouth Street Bath, UK BA1 2BW England.