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  #9421  
Old 12-04-12, 10:25
sniper sniper is offline
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Originally Posted by martinvickers View Post
Festinagirl, who was part of the panel, tweeted that it was clear MA was not challenging either Evans or Wiggins per se- rather that the sport was in such a mess you couldn't believe anybody - but if certain actions were taken, these issues wouldn't arise any more.

In other words, more or less what Kimmage said.
Fully agree.
And that's exactly why JV/Millar's vouching for Sky/Wiggins is so absurd, and how they somehow miraculously know the TdF was won on paniagua and marginal gains. As Festinagirl, MA and Kimmage have noticed: you can't know.
Both JV and Millar have vouched for Sky in press even without asking.
That's now officially B-crap and/or self-serving PR.
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  #9422  
Old 12-04-12, 10:27
martinvickers martinvickers is offline
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Does this mean you subscribe then to DW's theory or parts thereof? Or is the above line a self congratulatory one in debunking it based on mostly irrelevant discussion and obfuscating the audience...
Is that from evidence, or intuition?

Oh, and obfiscating the audience? Kettle, Pot called..something about colour.

Last edited by martinvickers; 12-04-12 at 10:40.
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  #9423  
Old 12-04-12, 10:36
martinvickers martinvickers is offline
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Originally Posted by sniper View Post
Fully agree.
And that's exactly why JV/Millar's vouching for Sky/Wiggins is so absurd, and how they somehow miraculously know the TdF was won on paniagua and marginal gains. As Festinagirl, MA and Kimmage have noticed: you can't know.
Both JV and Millar have vouched for Sky in press even without asking.
That's now officially B-crap and/or self-serving PR.
Sorry, sniper that's far too harsh and irrational, and it doesn't pass Occams' Razor.

Can we be sure of Sky? Of course we can't - The Ashenden/Kimmage line is, frankly, the only sensible one to take - and let's be clear, by that i mean the Ashenden and Kimmage line those guys actually took at CCN, not the one some people here are trying to read it as!

Namely

- Cycling is in a complete mess.
- UCI head honcho's position is untenable.
- We have no proof or evidence that e.g. Sky are dirty
- We have no real way of knowing or trusting they are clean either
- such is cycling's history, it's impossible to simply believe without question, the sport is too tainted
- such questioning is unfair on clean riders, and clean winners, if they exist.

None of that, of course, is in anyway inconsistent with, e.g. JV saying, i think, from knowing the person, that Wiggins is clean. Doesn't mean they KNOW it, of course they don't. But they can believe it, believe it strongly, feel pretty sure of it - none of that means claiming knowledge they don't have.

Too, too many people here want to be proved right about their gut biases, rather than actually listen and learn...
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  #9424  
Old 12-04-12, 11:18
sniper sniper is offline
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Originally Posted by martinvickers View Post
Sorry, sniper that's far too harsh and irrational, and it doesn't pass Occams' Razor.

Can we be sure of Sky? Of course we can't - The Ashenden/Kimmage line is, frankly, the only sensible one to take - and let's be clear, by that i mean the Ashenden and Kimmage line those guys actually took at CCN, not the one some people here are trying to read it as!

Namely

- Cycling is in a complete mess.
- UCI head honcho's position is untenable.
- We have no proof or evidence that e.g. Sky are dirty
- We have no real way of knowing or trusting they are clean either
- such is cycling's history, it's impossible to simply believe without question, the sport is too tainted
- such questioning is unfair on clean riders, and clean winners, if they exist.

None of that, of course, is in anyway inconsistent with, e.g. JV saying, i think, from knowing the person, that Wiggins is clean. Doesn't mean they KNOW it, of course they don't. But they can believe it, believe it strongly, feel pretty sure of it - none of that means claiming knowledge they don't have.

Too, too many people here want to be proved right about their gut biases, rather than actually listen and learn...
of course nobody wants to listen and learn.
we've listened to and learned from Lance, Bruyneel, Phat, McDruggem.
and now we're supposed to listen and learn from JV/Millar?
what a joke.
As Ashenden et al say: there is no way of knowing wiggins is clean or if cycling has actually cleaned up after 2008 or not or to what degree.
However you want to put it, that is in full contradiction with what JV/Millar has claimed (marginal gains, etc.) on multiple occasions, namely that they know Sky/Wiggo/cycling is clean.
JV has even defended Wiggins' rant against doping questions as "logical". WTF?
Wiggo has been beating known dopers, and JV knows he did it clean? Another WTF.
JV has drawn on data to prove his hypothesis that cycling is now clean, data of which Ashenden obviously thinks they mean zilk in terms of proving cleanhood. It'S what Ashenden has called 'databending'.
bottom line: JV says you can know/see/show cycling is clean. Ashenden says (at present) you can't.
of course in reality JV/Millar know better. PR agenda is the word. Perception is reality.

Last edited by sniper; 12-04-12 at 13:18.
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  #9425  
Old 12-04-12, 13:19
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DW: Well, I donít know if it should. I know the question youíre asking is legitimate and I know thereís a good reason for believing that Greg LeMond might have been the last clean winner for the Tour de France until Bradley Wiggins maybe. Cadel Evans maybe, I donít know. What weíve got to go beyond is the I donít know. Weíve got to get to a situation where we do know. Thatís why we need change in cycling because the people who have been running cycling havenít been as determined enough to find out.
It's my belief at Walsh is unsure about Wiggins and Sky.

He certainly wouldn't be placing a bet on their cleanness.
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  #9426  
Old 12-04-12, 13:30
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Mellow Velo Mellow Velo is offline
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It's my belief that Walsh is unsure about Wiggins and Sky.
Excellent post Hog
(Since it's also exactly what I said you were really implying about MA, 20 posts ago.)
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  #9427  
Old 12-04-12, 13:45
sniper sniper is offline
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DW: (...) I don’t know. What we’ve got to go beyond is the I don’t know. We’ve got to get to a situation where we do know.
Walsh is a bit behind: Millar and JV are already there, they already know:
Quote:
Millar: 'We're clean riders and we're dominating the Tour,' says David Millar after superb Stage 12 success
http://www.itv.com/tourdefrance/news...-stage-12-win/
Quote:
Vaughters said he has no doubt that Sky ride clean and that Bradley Wiggins is an untainted Tour de France champion
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/oth...ry-lesson.html
Quote:
Jonathan Vaughters, who worked with Bradley Wiggins (above) during his time at Garmin, says he has no doubts the Englishman has always ridden clean and was clean when he won this summer's Tour de France
I like this one particularly:
Quote:
The former US Postal rider ... also took the opportunity afterwards to stress his total belief that his former Garmin rider Bradley Wiggins won the 2012 Tour riding clean.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/oth...ping-past.html

Last edited by sniper; 12-04-12 at 13:50.
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  #9428  
Old 12-04-12, 13:58
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JV HAS to say Wiggins was clean since 2009, or his house of clean cards crumbles, credibility crushed.
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  #9429  
Old 12-04-12, 14:15
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armchairclimber armchairclimber is offline
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Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
JV HAS to say Wiggins was clean since 2009, or his house of clean cards crumbles, credibility crushed.
He says it because it's true. You're way behind the game.
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  #9430  
Old 12-04-12, 14:37
Ferminal Ferminal is offline
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TD, CVV, DZ, DM never doped at Slipstream either, it's true.
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