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  #701  
Old 12-04-12, 13:20
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Bavarianrider Bavarianrider is offline
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Originally Posted by Velo1ticker View Post
It's sad you do not know what your talking about.

http://gorhambike.com/articles/stone...ices-pg723.htm

At the 2002 Olympics, the Swedes and the Germans combined resources to fly a Tazzari stone grinder in from Sweden. They rented a house and shop close to the Olympic venue in order to be on the spot with the most up-to-date stone grinding technology available. The high cost--flying two tons of equipment from Europe and renting a house in a town hosting the Olympics--is some indication of the importance of stone grinding at the top level of our sport.

But is there an advantage for the average citizen racer or recreational skier? Unequivocally, yes! Most skiers hopping on a newly ground pair of skis will immediately feel the difference.
The stone grid thing gets never old i guess.
For God's sake when i was a young boy in the 90es competing in kids races we already knew what stone grid was.
Yeah but surely the Norwegians were the only ones who used it ona proffesional level in the 90es
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  #702  
Old 12-04-12, 17:29
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Originally Posted by Velo1ticker View Post
It's sad you do not know what your talking about.

http://gorhambike.com/articles/stone...ices-pg723.htm

At the 2002 Olympics, the Swedes and the Germans combined resources to fly a Tazzari stone grinder in from Sweden. They rented a house and shop close to the Olympic venue in order to be on the spot with the most up-to-date stone grinding technology available. The high cost--flying two tons of equipment from Europe and renting a house in a town hosting the Olympics--is some indication of the importance of stone grinding at the top level of our sport.

But is there an advantage for the average citizen racer or recreational skier? Unequivocally, yes! Most skiers hopping on a newly ground pair of skis will immediately feel the difference.
And guess who totally dominated the Germans and the Swedes at the 2002 Olympics in Salt Lake City? A skier named Johann Muehlegg from Spain, a country with a tiny budget to invest in ski grinding and waxing. His method to dominance? EPO. Yes, he got caught due to a new EPO test - but let me just point out again that there were no such test throughout the 1990's.

You continue to argue the angle that Norwegians had a unique advantage in skis THROUGHOUT the 1990s when Daehli, Ulvang and Alsgaard were beating known dopers from Italy, Russia, Finland, Kazakhstan and elsewhere in all types of snow conditions, including those where skis and waxing play a relatively small role (e.g. old cold snow, icy / transformed snow). Even if the Norwegians had a small advantage in skis in EVERY race, this would not begin to explain how they can close the 5-7% benefit from doping to the gills with EPO.

My Norwegian friends have started to take the view that they simply don't want to talk about the 1990's. They want to believe in the "high ethics" or their beloved countrymen. But they also recognize the POSSIBILITY that things might not have been what it seemed at the time. It is the same process kids go through when they begin to realize that Santa Claus is not for real. That's what the Norwegian response to the recent revelations in the Finnish film and the doping admissions by former Norwegian pro cyclists looks like from the outside.

Sorry to be so blatant, but no logic seems to get across in this discussion. ;-)
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  #703  
Old 12-04-12, 19:34
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Libertine Seguros Libertine Seguros is online now
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I envy and believe you.
Lack of recovery IMU means that endurance performance should be leading, unless the slowest ones are spared by the pace set, or drafting is a factor at least as great as the difference between the lead tempo and the weakest link able to hang on.

As for Domracheva being so much slower in a junior race compared to Neuner... The ski prep is a factor there, and Neuner was already a WorldCup contender als a junior. Ready for the big leagues early on. To be of equal talent, one cannot demand to be equallly fast at the same undevelopped age. Neuner likely got access to the very best skis for her worlds, not so sure she'd be ready to swap with Domracheva's pre race. In any case, if a bike rider were to get 7th in an ITT at junior age, we'd not dismiss them to win senior worlds later in life. Already at that age, there are lot sof variables to be optimized. Neuner was ready to beat any woman on skis in 2006, not the typical junior performance. Now her eeeaaarly retirement raised my eyebrows some. I was and am a fan, but it's just weird. He style was very Gunda Niemann like. Strength, inefficient, but fast. She'd called for more OoC doping testing, but quit early when she was still among the best, and learning to shoot.
Goessner, I seem to remember was off the pace last year. If she'd really be as fast as people said, she'd be like a Neuner. Empty rifle in the air, and ski to win.
I hope someone will agree or disagree with me, but I get itchy from Makarainen's (albeit consistent) speed, while I can understand/justify Domracheva's. Skiing is different from cycling. There actually is an edge to be had by skiing smooth. Lars Berger showed that for over a decade. No apparent strength or power, just grace. Domracheva takes it a level further. If only it's because she's a fine fine woman. When she hauls in a competitors, it always looks like a swan catching up with a duckling. And eagle catching up with a crow, yet the scale it the same. She's totally average in build as far as I can tell. The smooth is just like a video game. She's a dancer, impaccable stability and balance. Where Neuner always looked a bit chubby, Domracheva is a bit skinny, yet ony semi-toned. Neuner would be doing a V2 with such strength impulse. that her poles would be in a V2alt rythm. For non-skiers, her cadance was so low that her poles made a long complete swing between skate strides. No grace, just muscle. Again, Gunda Niemann like in my book. Youtube her. As much as I love angel face Neuner, I would be uncomfortable vouching for her. That retirement is just weird. Would not be totally surprised to hear it was a deal with the German biathlon union having footnotes about her blood values.
I'm going to say that I feel you're very harsh on Gößner here. She's seriously quick, on form. She posted the 2nd fastest ski times at Östersund, and at times in the 2010-11 season only Neuner could outski her, at 20-21 years of age. She had surgery to fix intestinal knotting in summer 2011, and didn't perform up to that standard in 2011-12, but she has the potential to be one of the fastest if not THE fastest on the skis if she gets things right.

The major problem she has is that it is way too easy to plug her in to the "new Neuner" role. She's young, she's blonde, she's pretty, she's from the same place (Neuner's from Wallgau, a village in the Garmisch-Partenkirchen municipality, Gößner's from Garmisch itself), she's fast at skiing and terrible at shooting, and she used to be Neuner's roommate. Far too easy to compare, which puts plenty of pressure on those shoulders, which can also slump pretty dramatically when things go wrong - just look at her body language after the shooting meltdown at Pokljuka in 2010. She has two problems in comparison to Neuner, and they're big ones.
1) she isn't as fast as Neuner;
2) she isn't as good a shot as Neuner.
The first is no great criticism - apart from Domracheva, who can we honestly say is? On her day, Gößner has outpaced all of the people participating in the World Cup today, so it isn't unreasonable to expect that she can do so again. From 45th in the pursuit on Sunday, she was up to around 12th-13th before losing several places due to bad shooting at the final round. The second is a major problem; Neuner, for all the criticism she took for her shooting, has never been a bad shot from prone. Her standing shooting only ever really got sorted out in the last year or two of her career, but she's always been OK in prone. Gößner shoots slowly, in addition to her problems with accuracy. Remember, she's still only 22 - there is no reason whatsoever to abandon hope for her breaking out for at least another couple of years. Being the second quickest skier in Östersund may have been surprising based on her 2011-12 performances, but is nothing out of the ordinary if we judge against her 2010-11 performances and then remember that Neuner isn't there anymore.

Kaisa is an interesting one. I'd always figured she was fast on the skis, and so when she changed her shooting training and reaped the rewards in the offseason 2010, and suddenly became this unbeatable force at Östersund and Hochfilzen, I raised my eyebrows but wrote it off as being the product of the improved shooting, because her skiing was always good. I used her as a comparison in my post about Bradley Wiggins' ITT, actually, because it was then shown to me that in fact her ski times (well, her ski rankings in terms relative to competition) had improved, and she was in the top 5 ski times more frequently, but it was easier to buy because the improvement in her shooting had been so dramatic. Just as how the focus on the improvement in Wiggins' climbing meant we didn't focus on how much his ITT had improved, as we all knew he had been an ITT specialist, so that didn't raise eyebrows. But when you're competing for winning races and the overall World Cup, you're more willing to push yourself than when you're competing for 15th; it's just basic human nature (although towards the end of the season 15th in the World Cup total score takes on some importance in biathlon of course, with the funding).

I also don't see Neuner's retirement as weird. The world of biathlon is fairly small; she's already achieved all she could ever hope to unless she just gets off on compiling statistical records like Michael Schumacher. The pressure on her to perform from German press is quite high, and the reward is increasingly less when it's no longer a new aim. I can buy that as a valid and viable reason.

What's more, I don't see Dasha's ski speed as weird either. She was quick but inconsistent when she first came to the scene, and is still only 26. Yes, there are some moments that stand out, like when she was chased down by Marie-Laure Brunet when leading the Mass Start in Antholz in 2010-11, that seem pretty incongruous when thinking about how she's now seen as likely the strongest skier. But she wasn't the strongest skier at Östersund 2011, and it was only as the season went on that she went from being one of a group of quick skiers behind Neuner to being undisputably the fastest skier not named "Magdalena Neuner" and sometimes being the fastest skier even including those named "Magdalena Neuner". Bearing in mind the biathlon season is pretty short compared to, say, cycling, working out peaking and so on is different too. She finished the 2010-11 season in very strong form at Khantiy and Holmenkollen, and arrived in similar form at the start of 2011-12, then getting stronger. Her performing so well at the beginning of the season didn't raise eyebrows the way, say, Synnøve Solemdal did when she went from finishing 17th with no penalties at the end of 2010-11 to outskiing Neuner at Östersund in 2011-12.

There are links that can be drawn, and perhaps should, for sure. Mäkäräinen's coach and his history might draw some unwanted attention to improvements in her performance, for sure. And Pichler's comments about Domracheva's improvements may have some significance. But just looking at their performances and improvements here and there, I don't see anything that I would call BS on the way we sometimes do with huge breakout performances or comical domination.
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  #704  
Old 12-04-12, 21:47
Trond Vidar Trond Vidar is offline
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But they also recognize the POSSIBILITY that things might not have been what it seemed at the time. It is the same process kids go through when they begin to realize that Santa Claus is not for real. That's what the Norwegian response to the recent revelations in the Finnish film and the doping admissions by former Norwegian pro cyclists looks like from the outside.

Sorry to be so blatant, but no logic seems to get across in this discussion. ;-)
You know. Some out there might also recognize the POSSIBILITY that some things are what they seemed at the time. That the Santa Claus belonged to the skiers that only mysteriously performed and peaked at certain events, and that those athletes (regardless of country) - was quite consistent throughout the season.

Sorry to be so blatant, but no logic seems to get across in this discussion. ;-)
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  #705  
Old 12-04-12, 21:59
Tyler'sTwin Tyler'sTwin is offline
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I feel like I misrepresented Domracheva's results as a junior. She was typically the #1 skier born 1986, ahead of Sleptsova.

OAS:

What's going on with the Austrian Men?
http://realbiathlon.blogspot.se/2011...trian-men.html

Team wide improvement followed by team wide decline 2 years later. Are they still blaming the Östersund parasite that apparently only impaired austrians (and all of them) long term? Fishy.
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  #706  
Old 12-04-12, 22:14
Trond Vidar Trond Vidar is offline
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Originally Posted by Bavarianrider View Post
The stone grid thing gets never old i guess.
For God's sake when i was a young boy in the 90es competing in kids races we already knew what stone grid was.
Yeah but surely the Norwegians were the only ones who used it ona proffesional level in the 90es
Most grinders (sp?) were not very sophisticated in the 90's. The guy who pionereed stone grinding in Norway was Olav Stuveseth, he also had to "rescue" a pair of Northugs skis in Vancouver that had been going though a bad grinding process by someone else. It was controversial.

http://translate.google.no/translate...ud%2F1.3638230

I've had my skis treated by this guy since 91. Most of the secrets are in the actual structures they create and the knowledge of when they work. He put in countless hours (my dad knows him quite well). Very secretive, I never got to see his equipment - and there are structures I never had access to in the early nineties. They were afraid the skis would find its way to the competition.

Still, I've had some truly amazing skis prepped by this man. When you find the right pair and the right structure for a given snow condition it is almost magical. Waxing seems almost unnecessary

On the contrary, of the conditions change a little - or a fine layer of fresh snow falls on top of mixed conditions you feel that the same pair almost hold you back and every push you make is harder.

I am sure many had their skis worked on in the 90's, but the difference were almost visible by the eye at some races. I experienced this myself, and my best race (6th at junior nationals in Norway) I had skies that flied. Obviously the fitness level and consistency had to be there, but really great skies made the difference from good to great.

Imagine having 20 fantastic pair of skis (handpicked directly from the factory - there are so many poor skis with alignment issues in stores) for each style of racing, tuned to every condition imaginable. Imagine having 2-3 guys testing those skis for you throughout the night to find the exact 1-2 pairs you have to decide on. Those guys work exhausting hours (the usually get burnt out). That's some of the differences that other teams did not have in the 90's, and it makes a world of difference.

When you find that one pair with the right combination, you have an amazing edge. Johaugs skis in the 30k in Oslo Worlds last year was just that. Gold. So well that Sjur Røthe borrowed them the day after and skied into 4th place on the 50k, something he had never been close to before.

Last edited by Trond Vidar; 12-04-12 at 23:30.
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  #707  
Old 12-04-12, 22:25
Trond Vidar Trond Vidar is offline
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Originally Posted by Cloxxki View Post
The smoothness, always having been attributed high degrees of importance in skating, just lends her credibility. As it did Lars Berger. He looked slow all around the track as he (nearly or completely) won those rare XC outings. Similar pace around the track as Northug, just expending visually less energy. It's technically hard to ski hard like that. It's not about suspect blood values. In ski race I've been dropped by out of shape 60+ ager groupers that were also decades ahead in smoothness compared to me. I could only beat them in classic, which was much more about raw speed and double poling fury.
Although skating is physically harder than classical skiing, and require great technique not to waste a lot of energy there are still amazing advantages of a finetuned classical style. I find classical to be harder if you really want to be fast because it requires the combination of just the right amount of gripwax that you can sustain throughout a race, and an impeccable dedication to skiing correctly when you get tired.

But I have a heart for classical style. It's poetry in motion
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  #708  
Old 12-04-12, 22:40
Tyler'sTwin Tyler'sTwin is offline
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The following hct-values are from Conconi's records and were presented in the danish documentary 'Danskerlægen - del 2'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler'sTwin View Post
Manuela Di Centa

11 dec -93: 55.2%

17 jan -94: 50.9%

28 feb -94: 54.2%

4 mar -94: 52.0%

Silvio Fauner

16 dec -93: 40.9%

6 feb -94: 58.0%
Fauner's WC-results in december 1993:

Santa Caterina - Men's 30km C

1. SMIRNOV Vladimir KAZ 1:22:50.9
2. MOGREN Torgny SWE 1:23:33.8
3. JONSSON Niklas SWE 1:23:50.6

42. FAUNER Silvio ITA 1:27:11.5

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/610.ht...=CC&raceid=411

Davos - Men's 15km F

1. DAEHLIE Bjoern NOR 36:28.8
2. ULVANG Vegard NOR 36:42.7
3. MOGREN Torgny SWE 36:49.0

6. FAUNER Silvio ITA 37:11.5

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/610.ht...=CC&raceid=419

Dobbiaco - Men's 10km C

1. SMIRNOV Vladimir KAZ 24:02.8
2. ISOMETSAE Jari FIN 24:20.8
3. SIVERTSEN Sture NOR 24:21.1

8. FAUNER Silvio ITA 24:42.2

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/610.ht...=CC&raceid=422

Dobbiaco - Men's 15km F

1. SMIRNOV Vladimir KAZ 59:04.9
2. FAUNER Silvio ITA 59:32.2
3. DAEHLIE Bjoern NOR 59:33.2

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/610.ht...=CC&raceid=423

Surprisingly strong results (apart from the awful first race) if he wasn't blood boosted at the time.

On to Lillehammer.

Men's 30km F

1. ALSGAARD Thomas NOR 1:12:26.4
2. DAEHLIE Bjoern NOR 1:13:13.6
3. MYLLYLAE Mika FIN 1:14:14.5

7. FAUNER Silvio ITA 1:15:27.7

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/610.ht...=CC&raceid=457

Men's 10km C

1. DAEHLIE Bjoern NOR 24:20.1
2. SMIRNOV Vladimir KAZ 24:38.3
3. ALBARELLO Marco ITA 24:42.3

8. FAUNER Silvio ITA 25:08.1

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/610.ht...=CC&raceid=461

Men's 25 km M Pursuit

1. DAEHLIE Bjoern NOR 1:00:08.8
2. SMIRNOV Vladimir KAZ 1:00:38.0
3. FAUNER Silvio ITA 1:01:48.6

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/610.ht...=CC&raceid=465

Men's 50km C

1. SMIRNOV Vladimir KAZ 2:07:20.3
2. MYLLYLAE Mika FIN 2:08:41.9
3. SIVERTSEN Sture NOR 2:08:49.0

11. FAUNER Silvio ITA 2:11:09.6

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/610.ht...=CC&raceid=469
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  #709  
Old 12-04-12, 22:41
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Originally Posted by Trond Vidar View Post
You know. Some out there might also recognize the POSSIBILITY that some things are what they seemed at the time. That the Santa Claus belonged to the skiers that only mysteriously performed and peaked at certain events, and that those athletes (regardless of country) - was quite consistent throughout the season.

Sorry to be so blatant, but no logic seems to get across in this discussion. ;-)
One of the reasons EPO was so effective during the 1990's is that you could take it continuously. It helped you train harder and race faster. Racers full of EPO were consistently good. There was no EPO test to detect its use and no Hb limits to stay within a range. The only worry was not to overuse it to a point where blood became too thick and would become a real health concern. This was easily controlled by simple blood test.

The peaking once or twice per season is what you do with autologous blood doping. You can store away only so many blood bags that you'll have to pick your races where you do well. Veerpalu is the best example of how to take this to perfection. This was the doping method of choice in the 1980's and again in the 2000's. But not during the wild 1990's. EPO made it unnecessary to go through the complicated process of withdrawing and re-infusing blood.

So if being consistently good does not clear your fellow countrymen of doping suspicions, do you want to offer an alternate theory?
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  #710  
Old 12-04-12, 22:59
Trond Vidar Trond Vidar is offline
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One of the reasons EPO was so effective during the 1990's is that you could take it continuously. It helped you train harder and race faster. Racers full of EPO were consistently good. There was no EPO test to detect its use and no Hb limits to stay within a range. The only worry was not to overuse it to a point where blood became too thick and would become a real health concern. This was easily controlled by simple blood test.

The peaking once or twice per season is what you do with autologous blood doping. You can store away only so many blood bags that you'll have to pick your races where you do well. Veerpalu is the best example of how to take this to perfection. This was the doping method of choice in the 1980's and again in the 2000's. But not during the wild 1990's. EPO made it unnecessary to go through the complicated process of withdrawing and re-infusing blood.

So if being consistently good does not clear your fellow countrymen of doping suspicions, do you want to offer an alternate theory?
I am fully aware of the EPO-rage of the nineties, and its undetectability. Neither am I trying to clear my fellow countrymen. Black sheeps can be found anywhere.

I do not need to offer an alternative for my view/theory. I happen to believe that there are amazing athletes out there that have the physical gift, mental will and desire to be the best without the use of drugs. Some of those make it. I skied on bread and water in the nineties, and beat a future world champion when I was a junior. I wasn't the most dedicated or most talented. At all.

Out of curiosity. Why didn't EPO allow other skiers to be consistently good in the nineties?
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