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  #9441  
Old 12-04-12, 19:48
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Libertine Seguros Libertine Seguros is offline
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Sorry, sniper that's far too harsh and irrational, and it doesn't pass Occams' Razor.

Can we be sure of Sky? Of course we can't - The Ashenden/Kimmage line is, frankly, the only sensible one to take - and let's be clear, by that i mean the Ashenden and Kimmage line those guys actually took at CCN, not the one some people here are trying to read it as!

Namely

- Cycling is in a complete mess.
- UCI head honcho's position is untenable.
- We have no proof or evidence that e.g. Sky are dirty
- We have no real way of knowing or trusting they are clean either
- such is cycling's history, it's impossible to simply believe without question, the sport is too tainted
- such questioning is unfair on clean riders, and clean winners, if they exist.

None of that, of course, is in anyway inconsistent with, e.g. JV saying, i think, from knowing the person, that Wiggins is clean. Doesn't mean they KNOW it, of course they don't. But they can believe it, believe it strongly, feel pretty sure of it - none of that means claiming knowledge they don't have.

Too, too many people here want to be proved right about their gut biases, rather than actually listen and learn...
What is there to listen and learn about the above?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Ashenden and Kimmage's assertions. Most fans would - should - agree that. Vaughters and Millar have perhaps been too egregious in spouting their certainty that Sky are clean, but they also know more than most of us forumites.

So we've listened to them, and we've learnt that these two people, both of whom are reformed characters but known former liars, are convinced that Sky is clean.

We have also listened to scientific rationale behind Sky's performance. And we have learnt that, in isolation, most of the trees can be explained away, and that the performance level indicates that it is theoretically possible to win a Grand Tour clean today.

We have categorically not learnt that this theoretical possibility means that it actually happened. There are far too many trees for many people to believe the large level of coincidence required for all of these factors to converge and make for the Tour not just being WON clean, but being absolutely obliterated clean. And with the other factors in place (such as those that caused JimmyFingers, one of Sky's staunchest defenders on the board, to say that they couldn't have looked more suspicious if they tried) and some of the questionable morals of some of the people involved, what more do we need to listen to in order for us to be convinced of Sky's cleanliness?

Certainly for many fans, a lot more than has been presented to us to date.
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  #9442  
Old 12-04-12, 22:36
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richtea richtea is offline
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But Wiggins was a Wednsday too and i know lots of people had work whereas Cav was a Saturday and the opening event of the olympics no less.

Wiggins did get some promotion with the sun doing some get free wiggins clip on sideburns with your daily tits and celebrity gossip deal.

Though on the other hand, the road race had about 2 million of its base fans out on the road and a good million of those around box hill and nowhere near any tv to register their numbers on the peak time viewership thing.
I'm with you - they announced Wiggins gold when I was on the tube to a meeting in Green Park - the figures never were going to be the highest. Hoy was on in the evening - if you add in the spectators there wasn't a great of difference with the road race. Plus I doubt the TV figures properly accounted for the screens put up in various places around Dorking etc for the crowds at the road race.
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  #9443  
Old 12-04-12, 22:50
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I'm with you - they announced Wiggins gold when I was on the tube to a meeting in Green Park - the figures never were going to be the highest. Hoy was on in the evening - if you add in the spectators there wasn't a great of difference with the road race. Plus I doubt the TV figures properly accounted for the screens put up in various places around Dorking etc for the crowds at the road race.
And Frankel was racing, and winning, at Glorious Goodwood!
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  #9444  
Old 12-04-12, 23:45
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Originally Posted by Libertine Seguros View Post
What is there to listen and learn about the above?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Ashenden and Kimmage's assertions. Most fans would - should - agree that. Vaughters and Millar have perhaps been too egregious in spouting their certainty that Sky are clean, but they also know more than most of us forumites.

So we've listened to them, and we've learnt that these two people, both of whom are reformed characters but known former liars, are convinced that Sky is clean.

We have also listened to scientific rationale behind Sky's performance. And we have learnt that, in isolation, most of the trees can be explained away, and that the performance level indicates that it is theoretically possible to win a Grand Tour clean today.

We have categorically not learnt that this theoretical possibility means that it actually happened. There are far too many trees for many people to believe the large level of coincidence required for all of these factors to converge and make for the Tour not just being WON clean, but being absolutely obliterated clean. And with the other factors in place (such as those that caused JimmyFingers, one of Sky's staunchest defenders on the board, to say that they couldn't have looked more suspicious if they tried) and some of the questionable morals of some of the people involved, what more do we need to listen to in order for us to be convinced of Sky's cleanliness?

Certainly for many fans, a lot more than has been presented to us to date.
This I have continually stated. If clean then the Tour victory was the single most amazing riding ever seen in the history of the sport. Like you say; Sky obliterated the field. And if Sky smashed the rest of the peloton they way they did clean then you'd at least have to expect the remaining cyclists in the peloton were clean also. Which padova coming up which has a litany of mid-ranked cyclists still doping I'm finding it a rather large stretch of the imagination that Sky did what they did clean beating doped cyclists.

The Sky 2012 Tour team wasn't a team building for several years. They were cobbled together at the end of 2011 with Froome appearing from nowhere and by March 2012 all of their new recruits were smashing all the races they entered.

Everything about them was too good to be true.

Especially when you throw Rogers, Yates, Alien Froome efforts into the mix you get a completely uneasy feeling about them. Add the spice on top of Wiggins loving everything Lance and USPS and its a steamy cocktail.

Lance had the most appropriate expression and its fits perfectly for Sky, "not normal".

Last edited by thehog; 12-04-12 at 23:55.
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  #9445  
Old 12-05-12, 06:06
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Originally Posted by Bernie's eyesore View Post
The UCI also had a vested interest in Boonen doing so well in the cobbled classics
Why, yes they do.

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Originally Posted by Bernie's eyesore View Post
and in a Spanish 1-2-3 in the Vuelta.
Ask Zomnegen about the Giro samples he wouldn't test for CERA. Cleanest Giro in a couple of years... Or was it?

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Originally Posted by Bernie's eyesore View Post
Are we going to assume also that they had full knowledge of those riders doping and were in full support of them?
It's 2012 the Wonderboy myth was well and truly shattered and Pat and Hein were/are *still* making stuff up to defend Wonderboy and you are suggesting they didn't know? It's not possible to paint Hein and Pat as unknowing buffoons. They are as smart and ruthless as the cheaters they enable.

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Originally Posted by Bernie's eyesore View Post
It seems that anyone can make up anything they like and if anyone disagrees then they can justify their argument by pointing out what happened with Armstrong.
I'm the first person to admit I might be wrong. Epic wrong. Like Wonderboy faithful, Tyler's ephemeral twin wrong. It's okay. If it's a failed iteration to getting closer to what actually happens, then it is good work.

Finally, Wonderboy wasn't the only positive they suppressed. UCI utterly failed to hide Contador's positive is out there. Don't forget the UCI has total control over announcing positives and Hein has threatened as much. And then there's the historic problem of federations disposing positives and delaying Olympic arrivals to limit "the glow."

As thehog just posted, Everything about them was too good to be true. Especially when you throw Rogers, Yates, Alien Froome I would go even further than Hog's post and claim it was an entire, 100 years historic season for Sky. Not just the TdF and Olympics. What a great way to sell Olympic road-side tickets!

Nice post Hog! (I'll stop now)
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Last edited by DirtyWorks; 12-05-12 at 06:50.
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  #9446  
Old 12-05-12, 06:52
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Originally Posted by DirtyWorks View Post
Why, yes they do.



Ask Zomnegen about the samples he wouldn't test for CERA.


It's 2012 the Wonderboy myth was well and truly shattered and Pat and Hein were/are *still* making stuff up to defend Wonderboy and you are suggesting they didn't know? It's not possible to paint Hein and Pat as unknowing buffoons. They are as smart and ruthless as the cheaters they enable.



I'm the first person to admit I might be wrong. Epic wrong. Like Wonderboy faithful, Tyler's ephemeral twin wrong. It's okay. If it's a failed iteration to getting closer to what actually happens, then it is good work.

Finally, Wonderboy wasn't the only positive they suppressed. UCI utterly failed to hide Contador's positive is out there. Don't forget the UCI has total control over announcing positives and Hein has threatened as much. And then there's the pre-existing problem of federations disposing positives and delaying Olympic arrivals to limit "the glow."

As thehog just posted, Everything about them was too good to be true. Especially when you throw Rogers, Yates, Alien Froome What a great way to sell Olympic road-side tickets!

Nice post Hog! (I'll stop now)
I now bow down to your superior knowledge. You are right, not a single ticket would have been sold on Box Hill if Wiggins had not won the Tour and these ticket sales netted the UCI a windfall of millions.
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  #9447  
Old 12-05-12, 07:01
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Originally Posted by Bernie's eyesore View Post
I now bow down to your superior knowledge. You are right, not a single ticket would have been sold on Box Hill if Wiggins had not won the Tour and these ticket sales netted the UCI a windfall of millions.
Reducing the argument to absurdity doesn't help. But, yeah I agree Sky's 100 years historic 2012 stage racing season sold a few more tickets. How much can be attributed to viewership/sales is an open question.

We got some general information, but no specifics about how cycling is quantified and rewarded inside the IOC.
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Last edited by DirtyWorks; 12-05-12 at 07:04.
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  #9448  
Old 12-05-12, 07:11
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Bernie's eyesore Bernie's eyesore is offline
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Originally Posted by DirtyWorks View Post
Reducing the argument to absurdity doesn't help. But, yeah I agree Sky's 100 years historic 2012 stage racing season sold a few more tickets. How much can be attributed to viewership/sales is an open question.

We got some general information, but no specifics about how cycling is quantified and rewarded inside the IOC.
Sorry but what's absurd? You argued that the UCI were covering up Sky's doping to make money from sales of Olympic tickets. I have agreed with you. You only had to watch the Olympics to see all the empty venues where the Brits did not have a serious medal contender. They couldn't shift those tickets for love nor money!
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  #9449  
Old 12-05-12, 07:25
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Originally Posted by blackcat View Post
ok, back to Sky.

I dont see much difference in Sky to other teams.

The bigger question is, will Sky temper their program, after dominance. I doubt it, this is pro sport. Winning is only that matters.

Froome might have to extend his risk quotient for a Contador and Andy battle
My pessimistic take from comments during the 2012 TdF was places 3-10 were absolutely powerless to stop it and that has started the search for better PED's for 2013 outside Sky.

The way Sky are burying staff and replacing them with swimming coaches suggests it might be a Phil Gilbert 2012 for sky 2013. The other legitimate possibility is they've got the doping formula and a new deal in Spain so they will still kill it.
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  #9450  
Old 12-05-12, 07:42
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My pessimistic take from comments during the 2012 TdF was places 3-10 were absolutely powerless to stop it and that has started the search for better PED's for 2013 outside Sky.

The way Sky are burying staff and replacing them with swimming coaches suggests it might be a Phil Gilbert 2012 for sky 2013. The other legitimate possibility is they've got the doping formula and a new deal in Spain so they will still kill it.
And what better place to test new drugs / protocols out than at the Giro 2013?
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