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  #191  
Old 12-05-12, 13:44
mountainrman mountainrman is offline
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Originally Posted by Carols View Post
And I agree; they cannot fix the issues of decades in days. They can however Create the climate of change we so badly need!

Give them an opportunity and support!
I do not think the sport has time.

I think the objective of the commission seen by UCI is the same reason that the civil service often does the very same thing - to take the heat out of a current situation so they can first of all delay the outcome, then quietly forget about it. Seen from McQuaids point of view, they want to delay the recommendations as long as possible , use his own "strategic review" to feed the enquiry so he can say that when the commision reports "UCI are implementing most of the measures, give them time"

Mostly with the objective of getting reelected before anyone has the chance
to call him on the basis of failure to implement, and in the hope a few stalling tactics can delay the report till after his reelection.

So the issue of ensuring management change has to be fought long before the bodies report- and that means starting on deciding who and what needs to be changed needs campaigining starting now. So thekey figures and plan are in place far enough ahead of elections to get all the stakeholders to buy into it.

I think the one key area to discuss is actually missing (I think) from the terms of reference - and probably a deliberate ommission - that is the contribution to the problem made by the structure of UCI and the need to reorganise to split the doping away from the sport promotion which has led to the hopeless conflicts of itnerest and so "managing" or supressing of "bad news" instead of conducting doping investigations and processes and reporting 0without fear or favour.

And that needs to happen Immediately for the sport to regain credibility.

"Same old" is no longer good enough.

Last edited by mountainrman; 12-05-12 at 13:46.
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  #192  
Old 12-05-12, 15:40
Grandillusion Grandillusion is offline
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Look, I get what you are saying...but when a sport's culture fades and devolves into corruption, the people who love the sport want to see it turned around sooner rather than later. Which is why I suppose they decided to name the group "Change Cycling Now" ... as opposed to "Change Cycling Eventually." I hope it is the former and not the latter.

And to add to my earlier comments on "Change Cycling Now" vs. "Change the UCI President Now" -- changing the leadership I feel is only a small component of changing the sport.

Ultimately, what needs to change is the mindset of the people who take the drugs. What most amazed me about reading Hamilton's book was that he blood doped and took whatever he was given -- seemingly without any thought to his health or well being. Change Cycling Now should use their members who have a doping past to speak about their personal experience and talk about the hazards to their well being from doing it. The goal being, that they should change the perspective of the riders -- so that they focus more on the dangers and the risks. Changing the UCI leadership would be helpful in this area, because it would present an opportunity to set up a system where riders can feel empowered -- that they have an advocate and a support network in the event that they are pressured by anyone associated with their team into doping -- and therefore can stand up to it. Before, riders either had to cheat or quit. Some quit, but most decided to cheat because they weren't educated about the health risks and they lacked the support to stand up for themselves and say no.

What also needs to change is that the sport needs to prove to its supporters -- who drive the efforts of sponsors to be involved in the sport and therefore provides the funding for the sport -- that the sport is clean and heading in the right direction. Otherwise, more sponsors will follow Rabobank out the door and cripple the sport. In order to accomplish this, the drug testing must be improved and the system as to how tests are administered must improve. Changing leadership would also be instrumental in this area as well.

I look forward to hearing how Change Cycling Now intends to address these two main points. Present a plan - change the culture -- not just leadership -- and win back the sponsors and fans. Challenge McQuaid to implement this ideas, and then when he refuses or drags his feet -- then make it clear that he is standing in the way of the progressive ideas they are advocating. I hope in these two areas they provide positive ideas and are successful at promoting them and do not waste their time playing politics, which I feel is not productive.
Hi Babastooey,

I think CCN have those two crucial topics at the forefront of their minds. As far as cultural change goes, they have Dr Hoberman onboard (a widely respected academic with a serious interest in this subject for 25 years).

Also, they have had the foresight to welcome Gianni Bugno, the Professional Riders Association head. This is on the surface a somewhat controversial move considering his recent post RD history and historical support for the UCI. My take is that more insightful members of the CCN panel are hoping to "work on him" and get him on-side, with the longer-term aim of effecting wider cultural change.

As far as CNN convincing the fan base of their bona fides, I rather think it's the other way around to a greater or lesser degree!

Judging by some of the attitudes and apparent obliviousness evident over on the PRR side of this site, CNN have their work cut out to gain critical mass & momentum.

This comes under remit of Hoberman again, who has identified this tendency amongst sports fans (not just in cycling) as one of the key cultural changes to be addressed before meaningful change can be effected.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

But most important of all right now, before any of this, is to get those two out and a (reluctant but willing) Greg in!

Last edited by Grandillusion; 12-05-12 at 15:52.
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  #193  
Old 12-05-12, 19:13
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hiero2 hiero2 is offline
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Take the Rose Colored glasses off. I can understand how you differ on the drug front but Greg is a whiner of the first order. Even his followers should be able to see that. He whined when Hinault didn't play fair, he whined the first time another american made inroads in european racing. Yes Greg, I get it, you are fantastic. But, blowing your own horn incessantly just looks needy.
Well, now. I do agree that Greg has been known to whine sometimes. But, I've been following the guy since he was a junior in NV. I can't say he is anything as bad as the picture you have. And, if I recall correctly, he didn't whine when other Americans came to Europe - amof, as I recall, he was leading the welcome wagon. And as for blowing his own horn? Given what he accomplished, I don't think so man. He isn't doing half what he could to "blow his own horn". And, on top of that, he doesn't come off as arrogant, either.

So, on your post, I'm voting "DOWN in front!"
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  #194  
Old 12-05-12, 19:21
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fmk_RoI fmk_RoI is offline
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Originally Posted by mountainrman View Post
I think the one key area to discuss is actually missing (I think) from the terms of reference - and probably a deliberate ommission - that is the contribution to the problem made by the structure of UCI and the need to reorganise to split the doping away from the sport promotion which has led to the hopeless conflicts of itnerest and so "managing" or supressing of "bad news" instead of conducting doping investigations and processes and reporting 0without fear or favour.
Hate to rain on your parade, but had you read before citicising you'd see that the UCI IC's ToRs specifically refer to conflict of policing vs promoting. But hey, why let facts get in the way of nuttiness? Down the with the UCI IC! Down with it now!
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  #195  
Old 12-05-12, 19:26
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fmk_RoI fmk_RoI is offline
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Originally Posted by Grandillusion View Post
Also, they have had the foresight to welcome Gianni Bugno, the Professional Riders Association head. This is on the surface a somewhat controversial move considering his recent post RD history and historical support for the UCI. My take is that more insightful members of the CCN panel are hoping to "work on him" and get him on-side, with the longer-term aim of effecting wider cultural change.
What's the controversy WRT Bugno,the video cassettes in his briefcase which rattle when shaken? Bugno and McQuaid have openly warred in recent years. I would hardly call him a supporter of the current regime. Fact is Ashenden needs Bugno to sell his cure-doping-in-seven-months bot of magic to the peloton. What a pity he's alienated a large part of it by implying Cuddles and Wiggo are dopes and Fuller has alienated much of the rest with his comments about them being too scared to come to the meet-and-greet in London.
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  #196  
Old 12-05-12, 19:31
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fmk_RoI fmk_RoI is offline
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Originally Posted by Carols View Post
I agree; they cannot fix the issues of decades in days.
Ashenden has promised to fix it within seven months.
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  #197  
Old 12-05-12, 21:19
Grandillusion Grandillusion is offline
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Originally Posted by fmk_RoI View Post
What's the controversy WRT Bugno,the video cassettes in his briefcase which rattle when shaken? Bugno and McQuaid have openly warred in recent years. I would hardly call him a supporter of the current regime. Fact is Ashenden needs Bugno to sell his cure-doping-in-seven-months bot of magic to the peloton. What a pity he's alienated a large part of it by implying Cuddles and Wiggo are dopes and Fuller has alienated much of the rest with his comments about them being too scared to come to the meet-and-greet in London.
I've no idea what you mean about rattling video cassettes in briefcases.

However, Bugno a month ago (post- Reasoned Decision) was making public statements in support of Lance Armstrong's "greatness", and bigging-up the Biological Passport as a great UCI success story.

Whatever spats he may have had with McQuaid I bet will have had more to do with their own ego and turf-war concerns than any genuine concern for the well-being of the sport. I would be grateful for any links to reliable information on their disputes if you have any. Thanks in advance.

Ashenden may be optimistic in any hopes relying on Bugno. Going by his (Bugno's) waffling and vacuous statements today I wouldn't be holding out for much from "The Fifth Beatle"

And Fuller was being diplomatic IMO. Alienating? They need a good kick up the ****. What the hell has Wiggins got to be scared of? Pat McQuaid? Pfff.
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  #198  
Old 12-05-12, 21:36
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fmk_RoI fmk_RoI is offline
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Originally Posted by Grandillusion View Post
I've no idea what you mean about rattling video cassettes in briefcases.

Oh dear


Quote:
Bugno a month ago (post- Reasoned Decision) was making public statements in support of Lance Armstrong's "greatness", and bigging-up the Biological Passport as a great UCI success story.
Doper defends doper? Gosh, how original! As for defending passport, is shield behind which CPA members hide, remember?

Quote:
Whatever spats he may have had with McQuaid I bet will have had more to do with their own ego and turf-war concerns than any genuine concern for the well-being of the sport.
Ego and turf war could be used to criticise CCN members too ...
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  #199  
Old 12-05-12, 21:48
Grandillusion Grandillusion is offline
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Originally Posted by fmk_RoI View Post

Oh dear




Doper defends doper? Gosh, how original! As for defending passport, is shield behind which CPA members hide, remember?



Ego and turf war could be used to criticise CCN members too ...
Er, so Gianni is even worse than I suspected?! So what's not controversial about that? What point are you trying to make exactly?
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  #200  
Old 12-05-12, 22:00
Dr. Maserati Dr. Maserati is offline
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Originally Posted by fmk_RoI View Post
Ashenden has promised to fix it within seven months.
Promised?
Now I see why your comments here and on twitter are incorrect.

Quote:
Ashenden:
"Independent testing on its own is not sufficient. We want to put into place a system for next year's Tours that guarantees that the winners have not blood doped. It will restore public confidence in the riders and the race's outcome. It's for the riders, but very much by the riders."
That's a wish - not a promise.
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