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View Poll Results: Better Cobblestone rider: Boonen or Cancellara?
Boonen 76 52.05%
Cancellara 70 47.95%
Voters: 146. You may not vote on this poll

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  #131  
Old 12-07-12, 02:38
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What has he shown so far in Roubaix?

Roubaix isn't Vlaanderen.
You said only canc and phinney " have any potential in roubaix".

So g has no.potential in roubaix? He won the u23 version came 2nd in the tdf stage and was ****ing awessome.in flanders last year, but hey no.potential in roubaix if you say so.

btw you do realize he missed this year because he had a more important goal.to focus on. And last year he crashed a bunch of.times but hey, only boonen is allowed.to use bad luck as an excuse for 2011 right?
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  #132  
Old 12-07-12, 02:54
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Originally Posted by El Pistolero View Post
Cancellara has also never won a mountain stage race in his life. Tirreno-Adriatico 2008 wasn't even Protour that year and only had one tough Muro stage. Tour de Suisse was tailor made for him. Tony Martin was second that year and he's no climber either(but better than Cancellara anyway).
He along with stuey mate ogrady were 2 of the best mountain domestique in the brief leoperd trek days
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  #133  
Old 12-07-12, 03:29
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Originally Posted by El Pistolero View Post
Most editions of Roubaix are won solo. Someone can suck in a time trial just because he almost never trains on a time trial bike. Doesn't mean he doesn't have what it takes to ride a solo on a real bike during a classic. I never said that being good in time trials can in no way help you - I said certain aspects that make you good in long classics can also make you good in time trials. You need a big engine for both.

Besides natural talent what makes the difference during a time trial is lot's and lot's of training on your time trial bike, good position on the time trial bike(lot's of science involved with that), motivation and studying the route extensively. And of course the correct mind set. Tony Martin is afraid of riding at high speed over cobbles. I cannot blame him.

Just because you have a good aerodynamic position on a time trial bike or normal bike doesn't mean you can ride over cobbles on a Roubaix bike. 2 different styles. Also at Roubaix there's often a battle for position on the asphalt sections before the pavé. In a time trial you're all alone. Well, mostly anyway.
Time trialing is more than just lots of training on a TT bike, being aero, and knowing the route. You have to have the strength and mentality to keep yourself going at a hard pace (close to, at, or even above your max) over a given distance. And this is the part of time trialing that will help a rider when they go solo in a cobbled race.
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  #134  
Old 12-07-12, 06:23
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Time trialing is more than just lots of training on a TT bike, being aero, and knowing the route. You have to have the strength and mentality to keep yourself going at a hard pace (close to, at, or even above your max) over a given distance. And this is the part of time trialing that will help a rider when they go solo in a cobbled race.
Being a great time trialist has always been one of the things needed for the cobbled races. Moser seems like a good example of this. Having a sprint is good too. And cyclo-cross skills also come in handy (see De Vlaeminck, Erik. His brother Roger was also pretty good). It's hard to make a case that any particular type of rider is the right type for cobbles--you need a lot of skills--bike handling (I would pay a lot of money to see Andy S. in the Arenberg), power, tactical intelligence, the ability to eat a lot of mud, etc. The tiny guys who can fly up mountains tend not to do so well in Belgium.
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  #135  
Old 12-07-12, 09:46
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Originally Posted by El Pistolero View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBagHWwuYsk

I can give you many more examples, but you only asked for one.
ok then point to me exactly,where boonen drops(!) cancellara
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  #136  
Old 12-07-12, 09:48
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Originally Posted by El Pistolero View Post
Bradley Wiggins can't ride on cobbles, neither can Tony Martin or David Millar. Roubaix isn't about time trial skills, but bike handling on cobbles, positioning and a lot of endurance.

Boonen can win races solo, in a small group sprint and in a bunch sprint. Cancellara can only win solo.

Cancellara only rode one year in the U23 ranks(and even then only a few races), so that argument makes no sense. He was 23 years old when he got fourth in Roubaix. He rode his first Ronde van Vlaanderen at age 22.

Boonen got second once in LBL for espoirs back in 2001.

Cancellara has also never won a mountain stage race in his life. Tirreno-Adriatico 2008 wasn't even Protour that year and only had one tough Muro stage. Tour de Suisse was tailor made for him. Tony Martin was second that year and he's no climber either(but better than Cancellara anyway).

Also Strade Bianche is just a 1.1 race, something a lot of people tend to forget. I don't even think Boonen wants to win that race lol. Long distance asphalt classics? Which one would that be? Milan-San Remo? As if Boonen did not have the capabilities to win that race. He finished on the podium twice already. They ride the same classics every year you know. With the exception of the Amstel Gold Race.
we all saw how wlel andy schleck rode on cobbles so yeah the whole cobble thing is very much overrated and this is often said by riders as well. tour of flanders for instance is 100% race of placing yourself before the climbs and a bit of hilly skills with large chances of injury. that's why they have such low level of racing fields
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  #137  
Old 12-07-12, 09:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallace View Post
Being a great time trialist has always been one of the things needed for the cobbled races. Moser seems like a good example of this. Having a sprint is good too. And cyclo-cross skills also come in handy (see De Vlaeminck, Erik. His brother Roger was also pretty good). It's hard to make a case that any particular type of rider is the right type for cobbles--you need a lot of skills--bike handling (I would pay a lot of money to see Andy S. in the Arenberg), power, tactical intelligence, the ability to eat a lot of mud, etc. The tiny guys who can fly up mountains tend not to do so well in Belgium.
you are coming with examples of 50 years ago. the sport has evolved and is nothing like that anymore. pls explain to me a tiny guy like boogerd being one of the best in flanders, as he was the first time he ever did that race. it's all about placing, back then we had much smaller pelotons and the race was already stretched in the beginning. now everyone is waiting
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  #138  
Old 12-07-12, 13:58
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Simple, he wasn't one of the best in Flanders. More like Bettini. You guys just think Boogerd was good at something. If what you say is true, Bettini would have won Vlaanderen at least once in his career. Or podium... Because we all know Bettini >>> Boogerd.

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Originally Posted by Ryo Hazuki View Post
ok then point to me exactly,where boonen drops(!) cancellara
Cancellara is in the group and can't follow Boonen. Ergo he's getting dropped.

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Originally Posted by The Hitch View Post
You said only canc and phinney " have any potential in roubaix".

So g has no.potential in roubaix? He won the u23 version came 2nd in the tdf stage and was ****ing awessome.in flanders last year, but hey no.potential in roubaix if you say so.

btw you do realize he missed this year because he had a more important goal.to focus on. And last year he crashed a bunch of.times but hey, only boonen is allowed.to use bad luck as an excuse for 2011 right?
I ask you again, what the hell has Geraint ever done during a one day classic? He's only been good in one race during a classic. And he wasn't "****ing awesome", he was just good. So was Staf Scheirlinckx.

If Geraint Thomas has any potential at Roubaix he has never shown it hence I did not include him. Come back next year.

Boonen got second in the U23 version of LBL. Does this mean he has potential for LBL? Strange argument you have there. How many people who won Roubaix for espoirs have gone on to win the real thing by the way?

2nd in a Tour stage. Yeah, that's good. But it was on the easy pavé sectors of Roubaix and 95% of the peloton got eliminated early on because of crashes. Further more, Cancellara was slaving for Andy Schleck and not riding for him self and Boonen wasn't there. Ballan had his bad year and Pippo wasn't there either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Afrank View Post
Time trialing is more than just lots of training on a TT bike, being aero, and knowing the route. You have to have the strength and mentality to keep yourself going at a hard pace (close to, at, or even above your max) over a given distance. And this is the part of time trialing that will help a rider when they go solo in a cobbled race.
Did you even read my post?

"Correct mind set, Tony Martin is afraid of going over cobbles at suicide pace."

Just because you have the correct mind set for a time trial doesn't mean you have what it takes to ride over the cobbles at "suicide pace". Most of the riders that won Roubaix solo aren't time trial specialists. O'Grady, Vansummeren, Boonen, Museeuw, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryo Hazuki View Post
we all saw how wlel andy schleck rode on cobbles so yeah the whole cobble thing is very much overrated and this is often said by riders as well. tour of flanders for instance is 100% race of placing yourself before the climbs and a bit of hilly skills with large chances of injury. that's why they have such low level of racing fields
Peter Sagan, Philippe Gilbert, Fabian Cancellara, Tom Boonen, Greg van Avermaet, Bjorn Leukemans, Sylvain Chavanel, Edvald Boasson Hagen, Matthew Goss, Filippo Pozzato, Alessandro Ballan, Thor Hushovd, Stijn Devolder, Nick Nuyens, Niki Terpstra, Thomas Voeckler, Maxim Iglinsky, etc ride the Ronde van Vlaanderen pretty much every year with a few exceptions. How is that a low level of racing field? Because your little buddy Henao isn't riding? Yeah, that'll make a difference.

And which riders are you talking about that say cobbles are overrated?
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Originally Posted by Ryo Hazuki View Post
horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato
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Goss will woop boonens candy ass in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week

Last edited by El Pistolero; 12-07-12 at 18:45.
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  #139  
Old 12-07-12, 18:25
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Originally Posted by Wallace View Post
Being a great time trialist has always been one of the things needed for the cobbled races. Moser seems like a good example of this.
Yes, good example.

Hinault's example is even better for me. He apparently hated the race and yet managed to get it because of his tremendous power. Same for Merckx actually. Well as matter of fact, Hinault liked Paris-Roubaix. The hatred was a matter for journalist to dissert on.

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Originally Posted by Wallace View Post
And cyclo-cross skills also come in handy (see De Vlaeminck, Erik. His brother Roger was also pretty good).
Roger himself would rather debunk this. It means that Nys or Liboton can also be great Roubaisians and Merckx a good cyclocross rider. He would say. Actually Paris-Roubaix is for heavyweights and cyclocross for lightweights and he was the perfect balance between the two. Of course his technical skills were an advantage but not decisive.

The best crossers in history are rather climbers/Ardennes riders when they are roadies. See Robic, van der Poel sr, Zweifel, Breu or even Eric De Vlaeminck. Roger is an exception.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryo Hazuki
you are coming with examples of 50 years ago. the sport has evolved and is nothing like that anymore.
True. In those days, the cobbles were in much worse condition than today which means that technical skills were even more required. riders often had to cross sections on foot. Now the day before Paris-Roubaix they are cleaning it up with bulldozers or whatever and the friends of Paris-Roubaix did a great job in making the sections safe.

So today, technicality is even less required and power is more. Cancellara, Phinney and Boom are perfect examples. Or even EBH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryo Hazuki
pls explain to me a tiny guy like boogerd being one of the best in flanders, as he was the first time he ever did that race.
Very simply. Because Flanders is not Roubaix.
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  #140  
Old 12-07-12, 18:43
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Apart from Cancellara, non of the winners of the last 25 years was a great Time Trialist. (The last one that could classify as one, should have been Vanderaerden in 87)

You need power, not TT skills.
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