::::~ Wheelbuilders thread ~::::

RDV4ROUBAIX · #1 11-07-09, 06:12

A meeting place to discuss everything wheels. This will come in handy since there are a number of shop and industry folks that frequent these forums who offer great advice. Here we can share our ideas and help out people with technical questions without having to start a new wheel thread every time a question, comment, or idea arises.

I'll start it off with a bit of wheelbuilders art. Just finished lacing up a wheel set for a SS commuter road bike. This 32h front wheel is radially laced with Sapim CX Ray bladed spokes, alternating heads in/out. Some will say the CX Ray is a bit overboard for a commuter, I realize that, but I had some extra stock of an odd size that has been laying around here for more than a year. I'm happy.

flyor64 · #2 11-07-09, 08:42

Will advice include how to reverse the inevitable "oh sh!t I did this...and the wheel looks like this" scenarios?

I have a desire to build my next set of road wheels. I have books, tools, a basic truing stand, and ZERO experience building wheels...so I will invariably be a requester of such advice at one point this winter.

I've had my last two sets of wheels hand-built by my buddy who runs a shop...and this of course just screams "you have to try this yourself" at me. I'm doomed

Bustedknuckle · #3 11-07-09, 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyor64

Will advice include how to reverse the inevitable "oh sh!t I did this...and the wheel looks like this" scenarios?

I have a desire to build my next set of road wheels. I have books, tools, a basic truing stand, and ZERO experience building wheels...so I will invariably be a requester of such advice at one point this winter.

I've had my last two sets of wheels hand-built by my buddy who runs a shop...and this of course just screams "you have to try this yourself" at me. I'm doomed

Most of us(who may do this bike wrench/wheelbuilding stuff for a living) started out by buulding a wheel for ourselves. I did, about 24 years ago. Taught by a great wheelbuilder named Mike at Colley Ave Bikes in Norfolk. Try it, every wheel you build is an adventure. No 2 are the same.

Bobby700c · #4 11-08-09, 14:14

Hi all, I've been reading this forum for a while, and decided to join up now as I have just built my first wheel, saw this thread, and wanted to ask a few questions. I've built a 32h rear wheel using a Mavic Open Pro rim, Shimano 105 hub and DT revolution spokes, to replace the Shimano RS20 wheel I had which kept breaking spokes (something which isn't uncommon, from what I've read in another forum). I laced it radially on the non-drive side, and 2 cross on the drive side, whereas I believe that 3 cross is the norm for 32 spoke wheels. Is lacing it 2 cross likely to cause any problems? Also, RDV4Roubaix, is there a practical reason for lacing the wheel in your pic heads in/out, or is it just for looks?

RDV4ROUBAIX · #5 11-08-09, 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby700c

Hi all, I've been reading this forum for a while, and decided to join up now as I have just built my first wheel, saw this thread, and wanted to ask a few questions. I've built a 32h rear wheel using a Mavic Open Pro rim, Shimano 105 hub and DT revolution spokes, to replace the Shimano RS20 wheel I had which kept breaking spokes (something which isn't uncommon, from what I've read in another forum). I laced it radially on the non-drive side, and 2 cross on the drive side, whereas I believe that 3 cross is the norm for 32 spoke wheels. Is lacing it 2 cross likely to cause any problems? Also, RDV4Roubaix, is there a practical reason for lacing the wheel in your pic heads in/out, or is it just for looks?

Hey Bobby700c, welcome to the forum!

General rule is to use 3 cross for 32 or 36 hole, and 2 cross for 28 hole or anything less. You'll run into durability problems with 2 cross on a 32 hole because the spokes are leaving the hub at less of an angle, the cross becomes too severe and ends up bending too much where the leading and trailing spokes meet at the final cross (where they touch). Hope that helps.

You're right about the pic I posted. The alternating heads in/out on a radial pattern was done for purely aesthetic effect. Some say that lacing all heads in/elbows out makes for a stiffer wheel, but where talking fractions here, and it's only for a commuter.
I was feeling artsy.

Bustedknuckle · #6 11-08-09, 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby700c

Hi all, I've been reading this forum for a while, and decided to join up now as I have just built my first wheel, saw this thread, and wanted to ask a few questions. I've built a 32h rear wheel using a Mavic Open Pro rim, Shimano 105 hub and DT revolution spokes, to replace the Shimano RS20 wheel I had which kept breaking spokes (something which isn't uncommon, from what I've read in another forum). I laced it radially on the non-drive side, and 2 cross on the drive side, whereas I believe that 3 cross is the norm for 32 spoke wheels. Is lacing it 2 cross likely to cause any problems? Also, RDV4Roubaix, is there a practical reason for lacing the wheel in your pic heads in/out, or is it just for looks?

I realize this was for RDV$Roubaix but since this is a 'wheelbuilder's thread' and I are one-

-I don't think Revolution spokes are a good choice for a rear wheel unless you are in the 'buck 12' range in rider weight. 14/15 are more durable, make for a more durable wheel.

-Radial left side, 2 cross right side on a 32 hole wheel just doesn't do anything to help the wheel. It does make for a less reliable wheel, however, when compared to 3 cross both sides. You save no meaningful weight, do nothing for reliability or performance, so my opinion is why do it when compared to a 32/3 cross, 14/15 spokes, brass nipples.

-Remember the main reason the wheels are there is to get you there. Unless you change material(carbon-BIG $), small things like light spoke gauge or mixed lacing, mixed spoke gauge have a negative impact on reliability but do nothing for performance, unless something fails, then it has a BIG impact on performance.

-this from a long time wheelbuilder, 29 years, lots of wheels that has taught me to be pretty conservative in my wheelbuilding design and build philosophy.

Bobby700c · #7 11-08-09, 22:09

Thanks for your replies Bustedknuckle and RDV4 - I'm going to re-lace the drive side 3 cross when the longer spokes I ordered arrive. Regarding the radial lacing on the non-drive side, I actually read that this improves durability - from Sheldon Brown's website:

"A spoked wheel relies on having all of the spokes in constant tension. A highly dished rear wheel starts with very light tension on the left side spokes. The torque of hard pedaling combined with cyclical weight loading can cause the left side "leading" spokes to occasionally go completely slack momentarily.

Repeated cycles of tension and slackness cause these spokes to fatigue at the bends, and ultimately break.

With half-radial spoking, the amount of dish is very slightly less to begin with if you run the radial spokes up along the inside of its flange ("heads out.") In addition, since there are no "leading" spokes, no amount of torque on the hub can reduce the tension on any of the spokes."

Is this not the case? To be honest, I laced it this way mainly because I think it looks good, and I wanted to make it a bit more interesting for myself, not for the sake of durability.

Finally, I have to confess I don't know what the phrase "buck 12" refers to - I weigh around 63kg, not sure if this qualifies!

RDV4ROUBAIX · #8 11-09-09, 05:24

There's nothing wrong with that radial left/3cross drive spoke pattern for a 32 hole wheel, and Sheldon is right in theory, but any real world advantages are minuscule to just about none. I concur that it does look cool, but a 32 hole wheelset really should be 3x all around. However, I do build lower spoke count rears for lightweight riders or climbing specific wheels almost always with radial left/2cross drive.

I'll add too that your hub isn't meant for radial lacing anyway, you really should use a hub with reinforced flanges specifically for radial lacing like DT 240's (best available option), Miche Primato or Racing Box, Edco Super G.... etc, etc. And most builders that use radial lacing in their wheels are using low spoke count hubs made for straight pull (nailhead) spokes, hard to get 32h or 28h of these unless you're in the industry. This is the trouble with stock Shimano or Campy hubs, and the reason they say the warranty is void if you radially lace them. I've tried it with a stretch of good luck, but one day many moons ago cracked a radial side Record hub flange while riding, and I'll never do it again.

Bustedknuckle is absolutely right about Revolutions not being good for a rear wheel, unless you're a lightweight and ride nothing but the smoothest of pavement. They're really only a good lightweight option for front wheels.

Since you're just beginning, I would suggest to get really proficient at building basic 32 hole/ 3 cross wheels, and save the exotic lacing patterns for when you have more experience and proper components to do them with.

Bobby700c · #9 11-09-09, 10:24

Thanks for the advice guys, I'll re-lace the drive side for now and see how it goes. I can't see myself getting in enough practice to ever get really proficient, mainly because I haven't got enough cash to be building myself numerous wheelsets!

Bustedknuckle · #10 11-09-09, 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby700c

Thanks for your replies Bustedknuckle and RDV4 - I'm going to re-lace the drive side 3 cross when the longer spokes I ordered arrive. Regarding the radial lacing on the non-drive side, I actually read that this improves durability - from Sheldon Brown's website:

"A spoked wheel relies on having all of the spokes in constant tension. A highly dished rear wheel starts with very light tension on the left side spokes. The torque of hard pedaling combined with cyclical weight loading can cause the left side "leading" spokes to occasionally go completely slack momentarily.

Repeated cycles of tension and slackness cause these spokes to fatigue at the bends, and ultimately break.

With half-radial spoking, the amount of dish is very slightly less to begin with if you run the radial spokes up along the inside of its flange ("heads out.") In addition, since there are no "leading" spokes, no amount of torque on the hub can reduce the tension on any of the spokes."

Is this not the case? To be honest, I laced it this way mainly because I think it looks good, and I wanted to make it a bit more interesting for myself, not for the sake of durability.

Finally, I have to confess I don't know what the phrase "buck 12" refers to - I weigh around 63kg, not sure if this qualifies!

125 pound rider. Yes, I have read Sheldon's thoughts on radial left side rear and have even yakked with him in person about it(may he rest well and peacefully). If the right side tension is proper, the left side will be fine and dandy, if laced 3 cross.