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  #751  
Old 12-09-12, 10:24
Cloxxki Cloxxki is offline
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It's not just Randall. It that she went for being by far the best American to one of 4 really, really good one, in one season. I see no reason for the US team to lose any relay this year, other than from lack of experience racing at this LEVEL.

Their post-race interviews at Quebec offered an amount of rhetoric that got all hairs on my body re-arrange.
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  #752  
Old 12-09-12, 10:49
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Kikkan really showed here potential last season. Stats: http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/613.ht...art=0&limit=50
She was the world’s best sprinter, but also performed reasonable in longer races. Remember that each heat in a sprint competition may last up to three and a half minute, and to win you must go 4 times. The difference up to an < hour of steady effort is most of all a mental challenge according to some. Starting out as a sprinter and then starting to perform in longer races is also a common development I XC.
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  #753  
Old 12-09-12, 16:01
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Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
Great info!

Do you know what your natural Hgb/Hct was? ie living at sea level?

Also, do you know what altitude skiiers tend to compete at?
When living at sea level, my Hb is normally 14-15 g/l. Very little fluctuation in fact. I used to follow it regularly, checked twice a year. After an altitude camp at 5000 feet of 10 days or more, it would jump to just above 15. To get a substantial increase requires an extended stay at altitude.

FIS has an altitude limit of 1800 meters (or 5900 feet) for world cup and world championship races.
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  #754  
Old 12-09-12, 17:15
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that haemoglobin fluctuates with altitude is well known. it is is also well known that turin was at about 5000 feet. my suspicion was aroused, as i stated above by several factors: (i) by a jump in performance we have not seen in years(ii) the ironic comparisons by randall's coach to armstrong and hamilton (yes, if you invoke a hindsight, it is quite funny) (iii) by the amount of deviation from what seemed her normal value of 13.2 (22%) (iv) by the vague self-assurances of being prone to high values yet not having a dispensation. (v) by being an experienced professional athlete surrounded by professional staff who should know how to handle a dehydration prior to testing at the olympics. btw, she was, according to other sources, on the ground for at least 35 hours when she tested.

i don't know if she doped. i even gave her a credit for never triggering the situation again, at least officially. but most athlete's suspected around here demonstrated a lot less than what i listed above for randall.
Kikkan's performance in 2006 Olympics was not remarkable - 53rd on the classic 10 km, 9th on the 1.2 km freestyle sprint. Not indicative of doping.

Her rise has been relatively steady, and she's come on strong in sprint over the past two seasons - and in distance events this year. But she's still being beaten by a mile by the queen of Norway, Bjorgen.

I just had my Hemoglobin tested - 14.0 g/l, living at sea level. My highest measured value (17.4%) is 24% higher, due to altitude living & training.

When you arrive at high altitude from sea level, the body's first reaction is to respond to the lower oxygen levels by reducing plasma (which will increase Hb as it's measured as g/l of blood). You'll end up peeing away lots during days 2 & 3 up high. Full compensation to recover the lost plasma back takes about a week. It is unlikely, however, that this was the case for any of the athletes caught with high Hb - if the race is at altitude, you'll prepare for it by training up high just before.
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  #755  
Old 12-09-12, 20:02
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Quote:
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When living at sea level, my Hb is normally 14-15 g/l. Very little fluctuation in fact. I used to follow it regularly, checked twice a year. After an altitude camp at 5000 feet of 10 days or more, it would jump to just above 15. To get a substantial increase requires an extended stay at altitude.

FIS has an altitude limit of 1800 meters (or 5900 feet) for world cup and world championship races.
Thanks.

Did you ever track the drop upon returning to sea level?
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  #756  
Old 12-09-12, 20:13
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Originally Posted by Tubeless View Post
When you arrive at high altitude from sea level, the body's first reaction is to respond to the lower oxygen levels by reducing plasma (which will increase Hb as it's measured as g/l of blood). You'll end up peeing away lots during days 2 & 3 up high. Full compensation to recover the lost plasma back takes about a week. It is unlikely, however, that this was the case for any of the athletes caught with high Hb - if the race is at altitude, you'll prepare for it by training up high just before.
Great insight again, thanks.

As the body's increased EPO/Hgb production cycle is primarily hypoxia-based, it would seem to be of no effect when an increase occurs if you're competing at altitude. You're competing at altitude, so that increased Hgb is just counteracting the reduced oxygen pressure in the atmosphere yes?

Being at higher altitude to the competition site would potentially have a greater increase in Hgb, but the drop in Hgb upon returning to lower altitude is pretty quick yeah?
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  #757  
Old 12-09-12, 23:32
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Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
Thanks.

Did you ever track the drop upon returning to sea level?
Not via a blood test, but a rule of thumb is that the benefit will last as long as the stay up high.
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  #758  
Old 12-09-12, 23:45
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Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
Great insight again, thanks.

As the body's increased EPO/Hgb production cycle is primarily hypoxia-based, it would seem to be of no effect when an increase occurs if you're competing at altitude. You're competing at altitude, so that increased Hgb is just counteracting the reduced oxygen pressure in the atmosphere yes?

Being at higher altitude to the competition site would potentially have a greater increase in Hgb, but the drop in Hgb upon returning to lower altitude is pretty quick yeah?
Not sure what you're getting at but it's worth separating the Hemoglobin value (measured in grams / liter of blood) from the total Hemoglobin mass. E.g. if your Hemoglobin value is 15.0 g/l and you have 5 liters of blood, your total Hemoglobin mass is 5 * 15 = 75 grams.

While EPO levels go up immediately after arriving at altitude, it takes time for the body produce enough new red blood cells to make a difference in total Hemoglobin mass. The relative value measured in g/l goes up simply because the total blood volume drops - and the loss of plasma is in fact counter-productive to endurance performance. You can have an "ok" race by arriving at the race site at altitude the day of the race - but days 2 & 3 are typically not the best.

Another rule of thumb is that it takes 1 day per 1000 feet of elevation gain for the body to make the necessary adjustments to the lower oxygen pressure - these changes relate to heart rate, breathing frequency and plasma volume. The change in total Hemoglobin takes a minimum of 10 day stay up high.
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  #759  
Old 12-10-12, 00:22
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Originally Posted by Tubeless View Post
Not sure what you're getting at but it's worth separating the Hemoglobin value (measured in grams / liter of blood) from the total Hemoglobin mass. E.g. if your Hemoglobin value is 15.0 g/l and you have 5 liters of blood, your total Hemoglobin mass is 5 * 15 = 75 grams.

While EPO levels go up immediately after arriving at altitude, it takes time for the body produce enough new red blood cells to make a difference in total Hemoglobin mass. The relative value measured in g/l goes up simply because the total blood volume drops - and the loss of plasma is in fact counter-productive to endurance performance. You can have an "ok" race by arriving at the race site at altitude the day of the race - but days 2 & 3 are typically not the best.

Another rule of thumb is that it takes 1 day per 1000 feet of elevation gain for the body to make the necessary adjustments to the lower oxygen pressure - these changes relate to heart rate, breathing frequency and plasma volume. The change in total Hemoglobin takes a minimum of 10 day stay up high.
What I am saying is - if 2 athletes at sea level are performing relatively at X & Y and they both go to altitude, for training and then a race, their body's having sufficient time to adapt and respond to the hypoxia, I would expect them to continue to perform at relative X & Y.

Just because a skier had a higher Hgb, it's driven by hypoxia which the other athelete should also experience, to the same extent, and even though not measured, you'd expect their Hgb to increase as well.

I am curious, given the numbers you cite above, why cyclists train at altitude for as little as 2 weeks and yet ride so well afterwards - it would hardly seem to be from naturally increased Hgb mass given they return to sealevel for at least a week.
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  #760  
Old 12-10-12, 06:16
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Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
What I am saying is - if 2 athletes at sea level are performing relatively at X & Y and they both go to altitude, for training and then a race, their body's having sufficient time to adapt and respond to the hypoxia, I would expect them to continue to perform at relative X & Y.

Just because a skier had a higher Hgb, it's driven by hypoxia which the other athelete should also experience, to the same extent, and even though not measured, you'd expect their Hgb to increase as well.

I am curious, given the numbers you cite above, why cyclists train at altitude for as little as 2 weeks and yet ride so well afterwards - it would hardly seem to be from naturally increased Hgb mass given they return to sealevel for at least a week.
There are surprising differences between athletes in altitude performance. When I was skiing NCAA's, I had a Norwegian team mate who was no match from sea level through 7,500 feet. Above that altitude he'd almost always beat me. His best race was at a college meet that was held at 10,600 feet.

Note that altitude performance is not all about the relative Hemoglobin value. Some athletes have muscles that are able to absorb oxygen from blood more fully than others. When you go up in altitude, the difference between air pressure and tissue pressure (which is what enables oxygen molecules to transfer from blood to tissue) gets smaller - and it's believed there are individual differences in tissue pressure. At even moderate altitudes, perfectly good oxygen attached to red blood cells / Hemoglobin gets returned back to the lungs unused as the muscles were not able to absorb it.

A 2-week stay at a sufficiently high altitude is long enough to increase Hemoglobin values. Tapio Wideman, a Finnish member of the FIS medical commission during the 1990's has said that each 1 g/l increase in Hemoglobin can decrease the actual race time by as much as 2.5%. A 2-week training camp at 7,000 feet may be sufficient to induce such a change.
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