Doping in XC skiing - Page 77 - Cyclingnews Forum

Go Back   Cyclingnews Forum > Road > The Clinic

The Clinic The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #761  
Old 12-10-12, 06:22
Dear Wiggo's Avatar
Dear Wiggo Dear Wiggo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Sunny Australia
Posts: 5,562
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeless View Post
There are surprising differences between athletes in altitude performance. When I was skiing NCAA's, I had a Norwegian team mate who was no match from sea level through 7,500 feet. Above that altitude he'd almost always beat me. His best race was at a college meet that was held at 10,600 feet.

Note that altitude performance is not all about the relative Hemoglobin value. Some athletes have muscles that are able to absorb oxygen from blood more fully than others. When you go up in altitude, the difference between air pressure and tissue pressure (which is what enables oxygen molecules to transfer from blood to tissue) gets smaller - and it's believed there are individual differences in tissue pressure. At even moderate altitudes, perfectly good oxygen attached to red blood cells / Hemoglobin gets returned back to the lungs unused as the muscles were not able to absorb it.

A 2-week stay at a sufficiently high altitude is long enough to increase Hemoglobin values. Tapio Wideman, a Finnish member of the FIS medical commission during the 1990's has said that each 1 g/l increase in Hemoglobin can decrease the actual race time by as much as 2.5%. A 2-week training camp at 7,000 feet may be sufficient to induce such a change.
Thanks. The info and history is fascinating, and I was unaware of the tissue pressure although now that you mention it, I like the sense it makes. A bit similar to the concept of osmosis or the body's ability to absorb water better when there's electrolyte molecules to ease the passage.

Would blood pressure have an impact on that? ie higher BP enhances oxygen transfer through tissue? Heading OT now, I realise.

The 2 week cycling training camps are followed by 2 weeks taper at sea level then a week racing on flats before hitting the mountains in week 2 of a GT - so it's essentially 3 weeks at sea level. But I am getting way OT here, so please don't feel the need to respond inthread, unless I need correcting.
__________________
Letters to and from the pro peloton. twitter | blog

Last edited by Dear Wiggo; 12-10-12 at 06:24.
Reply With Quote
  #762  
Old 12-10-12, 12:04
davidhughes davidhughes is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3
Default "Climbers' build"

Aren't some people being unfair with comments about certain skiers not having a climber's build?

Isn't what a cyclist might think of as a climber's build not really transferrable to skiing, as in skiing the upper body muscle would help get up the climb, whereas on a bike it would be deadweight?

Nice to see Solemdal win at the weekend, last season she was a good shoot away from a win, good to see it happen for her.
Reply With Quote
  #763  
Old 12-10-12, 12:09
Bavarianrider's Avatar
Bavarianrider Bavarianrider is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 3,678
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidhughes View Post
Aren't some people being unfair with comments about certain skiers not having a climber's build?

Isn't what a cyclist might think of as a climber's build not really transferrable to skiing, as in skiing the upper body muscle would help get up the climb, whereas on a bike it would be deadweight?

Nice to see Solemdal win at the weekend, last season she was a good shoot away from a win, good to see it happen for her.
Indeed, you can't just judge people's climbing ability by their weight in cross country skking.
Reply With Quote
  #764  
Old 12-10-12, 14:12
davidhughes davidhughes is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler'sTwin View Post
WOMEN'S WORLD CUP TOTAL SCORE

1. NEUNER Magdalena 990
2. DOMRACHEVA Darya 945
3. MÄKÄRÄINEN Kaisa 807

138 points separating the top 2 is more exciting than 45 points? Domracheva will smash everyone next year.
Really? Not smashing Berger so far. And if Solemdal keeps up the shooting ...
Reply With Quote
  #765  
Old 12-10-12, 14:17
davidhughes davidhughes is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altitude View Post
Are there any websites that have live streaming of races? Like a steephill.tv of XC skiiing?
http://www3.biathlonworld.com/en/home.html
Reply With Quote
  #766  
Old 12-10-12, 15:57
Cloxxki Cloxxki is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,926
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bavarianrider View Post
Indeed, you can't just judge people's climbing ability by their weight in cross country skking.
I'm a climber myself at the level I compete at, and I've only ever managed to be <80kg in much younger years of high training volume.

In case of Bjoergen, she visually has many kgs of muscle bulk, difficult to use efficiently on an extended uphill effort at under jogging speeds, but at (near) maximum heartrate effort. I fully support such a build to bring the best short hill performance on the planet, but being top-5 or so on long climbs, makes me itch. She's like a Serena Williams on skis, no-one is more muscular. Or Lance, for that matter.
Reply With Quote
  #767  
Old 12-11-12, 00:07
Tubeless's Avatar
Tubeless Tubeless is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 382
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
Thanks. The info and history is fascinating, and I was unaware of the tissue pressure although now that you mention it, I like the sense it makes. A bit similar to the concept of osmosis or the body's ability to absorb water better when there's electrolyte molecules to ease the passage.

Would blood pressure have an impact on that? ie higher BP enhances oxygen transfer through tissue? Heading OT now, I realise.

The 2 week cycling training camps are followed by 2 weeks taper at sea level then a week racing on flats before hitting the mountains in week 2 of a GT - so it's essentially 3 weeks at sea level. But I am getting way OT here, so please don't feel the need to respond inthread, unless I need correcting.
Here's a useful article that explains the oxygen diffusion process - blood pressure is not a factor:

http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembo...idbasebal.html

Altitude training enhances the body's ability to adapt breathing frequency, plasma volume and carbon dioxide levels to subsequent visits to altitude. It's the basic training effect - the more you train your body to do something, the more easily it will respond. A 2-week stay at altitude followed by a 2-week taper at sea level will eliminate any Hemoglobin mass increase obtained in altitude - but is still useful as a prep for a repeat visit to altitude during the grand tour.

But as we know, the pros have other useful ways to fix the red blood cell count, so they don't need carefully timed visits to altitude for that :-)
Reply With Quote
  #768  
Old 12-11-12, 00:22
Dear Wiggo's Avatar
Dear Wiggo Dear Wiggo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Sunny Australia
Posts: 5,562
Default

Great link, thanks!
__________________
Letters to and from the pro peloton. twitter | blog
Reply With Quote
  #769  
Old 12-12-12, 10:46
Armchaircyclist Armchaircyclist is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 124
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloxxki View Post
I'm a climber myself at the level I compete at, and I've only ever managed to be <80kg in much younger years of high training volume.

In case of Bjoergen, she visually has many kgs of muscle bulk, difficult to use efficiently on an extended uphill effort at under jogging speeds, but at (near) maximum heartrate effort. I fully support such a build to bring the best short hill performance on the planet, but being top-5 or so on long climbs, makes me itch. She's like a Serena Williams on skis, no-one is more muscular. Or Lance, for that matter.
----------------------
http://www.seher.no/863609/marit-bjo...redrik-skavlan
Another picture of her there...

I agree that Bjørgen is suspicious. However a lot of the races in XC have not got many long uphills anymore. It's usually shorter ups and downs in a quite short round that is used several times in the longer distances. Because of the number of mass sprints, being stronger in the upper body is a much better idea than it used to be in XC-skiing.
Bjørgen is a product of weight training. In swimming we saw an increase in performance when weight training was introduced, it's not a huge surprise that weight training also helps in XC were you also use legs AND arms to move forwards.
Reply With Quote
  #770  
Old 12-12-12, 11:36
Trond Vidar Trond Vidar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 166
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armchaircyclist View Post

I agree that Bjørgen is suspicious. However a lot of the races in XC have not got many long uphills anymore. It's usually shorter ups and downs in a quite short round that is used several times in the longer distances. Because of the number of mass sprints, being stronger in the upper body is a much better idea than it used to be in XC-skiing.
Bjørgen is a product of weight training. In swimming we saw an increase in performance when weight training was introduced, it's not a huge surprise that weight training also helps in XC were you also use legs AND arms to move forwards.
This. Courses these days are more "sprinter" friendly. Shorter laps for spectators forces this in many ways.

Have a look at Kikkan. Not as beefy as Marit, but pretty bulky too. She is doing better and better also in distance racing.

Kikkan on the left:
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:48.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2006 - 2009 Future Publishing Limited. All rights reserved. Future Publishing Limited is part of the Future plc group. Future Publishing Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company registration number 2008885 whose registered office is at Beauford Court 30 Monmouth Street Bath, UK BA1 2BW England.