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  #5601  
Old 12-12-12, 20:12
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[QUOTE=Scott SoCal;1092460]
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But to your question, tell me what industry is not better served with healthy competition? There is nothing wrong with making unions compete for membership.

If they are all that and a bag of chips they have exactly nothing to worry about, do they? Nobody is undermining anybody. Unions either are worth the investment or they aren't. It should be up to the worker to decide, not you, not a politician and certainly not a self-interested union boss. It's called freedom.
Workers have decided, Scott, and they overwhelmingly - not all, but almost all - chose to be part of unions. That's what bugs the hell out of the Rs, that, given the choice, most workers who are given the opportunity choose to become part of a union. It's called freedom, it's just that you and the Rs hate that, when given that choice, most of them choose to be part of unions.

And if it's all about choice, then it should be up to the union to decide whether or not they have to represent non-union workers, right? But that's the exact opposite of what right to work legislation does - it gives non-union workers all the benefits of union protection without having to contribute to the union. There's no other way to view it other than as an attempt to undermine unions, Scott. You can try and dress it up as about "freedom" and "choice" all you want but that's not what it's about.

So what is it really all about? Given the timing and how they went about it, it's pretty clear that it's petty political payback by the Rs, who knew full well that it would never pass in January, after the new State legislature - with all of those new Ds - were seated. And given that workers in RTW states make less, have fewer benefits, health insurance, etc it can't be for the benefit of workers, eh? But wait a sec - lower wages, fewer benefits, less health insurance, those do benefit businesses, don't they. Hmm. Makes you wonder.

Anyway, in the long term, and speaking from a purely political viewpoint, I don't really mind that this passed because between this and their opposition to the auto bailout the Rs have (imo) handed MI over to the Ds for years to come. Thanks for the automatic 16 EV's in 2016, Gov Snyder

Last edited by VeloCity; 12-12-12 at 20:16.
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  #5602  
Old 12-12-12, 20:18
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Any of those quotes happen on a State house floor? Is your point that there are wing nuts on the right? ****, I could have told you that.
Ah right, sorry, the Virginia Republicans calling for violent revolution should Obama be re-elected or the elected Congresswoman Michelle Bachmann calling for armed resistance just doesn't compare.
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  #5603  
Old 12-12-12, 20:33
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Aaand let's see what other damage the outgoing Michigan Rs can do.

http://www.freep.com/article/2012120...s-to-abortions

Nice job, Rs! I will give you this, no one can match your efficiency and effectiveness at alienating vast numbers of people (and voting blocs) in so little time.
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  #5604  
Old 12-12-12, 20:40
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[QUOTE=VeloCity;1092512]
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Originally Posted by Scott SoCal View Post
Workers have decided, Scott, and they overwhelmingly - not all, but almost all - chose to be part of unions. That's what bugs the hell out of the Rs, that, given the choice, most workers who are given the opportunity choose to become part of a union. It's called freedom, it's just that you and the Rs hate that, when given that choice, most of them choose to be part of unions.

And if it's all about choice, then it should be up to the union to decide whether or not they have to represent non-union workers, right? But that's the exact opposite of what right to work legislation does - it gives non-union workers all the benefits of union protection without having to contribute to the union. There's no other way to view it other than as an attempt to undermine unions, Scott. You can try and dress it up as about "freedom" and "choice" all you want but that's not what it's about.

So what is it really all about? Given the timing and how they went about it, it's pretty clear that it's petty political payback by the Rs, who knew full well that it would never pass in January, after the new State legislature - with all of those new Ds - were seated. And given that workers in RTW states make less, have fewer benefits, health insurance, etc it can't be for the benefit of workers, eh? But wait a sec - lower wages, fewer benefits, less health insurance, those do benefit businesses, don't they. Hmm. Makes you wonder.

Anyway, in the long term, and speaking from a purely political viewpoint, I don't really mind that this passed because between this and their opposition to the auto bailout the Rs have (imo) handed MI over to the Ds for years to come. Thanks for the automatic 16 EV's in 2016, Gov Snyder
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Workers have decided, Scott, and they overwhelmingly - not all, but almost all - chose to be part of unions. That's what bugs the hell out of the Rs, that, given the choice, most workers who are given the opportunity choose to become part of a union.
Then how on earth does what happened yesterday threaten the unions sooo much? Since workers are clamoring to be part of a union the new legislation really will have no impact right? Just like what happened in Wisconsin. Oh, wait...

"Without the thumb of the state tilting the scale by coerced collection, union membership became truly voluntary. Result? Newly freed members rushed for the exits. In less than one year, AFSCME, the second largest public-sector union in Wisconsin, has lost more than 50 percent of its membership."


Oops. How the hell did that happen??

http://www.politifact.com/oregon/sta...ercent-its-me/

It really is about freedom and choice. Don't be afraid of those concepts.

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So what is it really all about? Given the timing and how they went about it, it's pretty clear that it's petty political payback by the Rs, who knew full well that it would never pass in January, after the new State legislature
So what? You think the timing of sequestration was an accident? Obamacare? Literally thousands of other political shenanigans?

Quote:
And given that workers in RTW states make less, have fewer benefits, health insurance, etc it can't be for the benefit of workers, eh? But wait a sec - lower wages, fewer benefits, less health insurance, those do benefit businesses, don't they. Hmm. Makes you wonder.
Garbage. BTW, Indiana is kicking Michigan's *** and that's the biggest reason and middle of the roader like Snyder signed something so 'controversial.'

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Anyway, in the long term, and speaking from a purely political viewpoint, I don't really mind that this passed because between this and their opposition to the auto bailout the Rs have (imo) handed MI over to the Ds for years to come. Thanks for the automatic 16 EV's in 2016, Gov Snyder
How'd that recall in Wisconsin work out for ya?
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  #5605  
Old 12-12-12, 20:44
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Ah right, sorry, the Virginia Republicans calling for violent revolution should Obama be re-elected or the elected Congresswoman Michelle Bachmann calling for armed resistance just doesn't compare.
Like I said. There are wing-nuts on the right.

To be clear, you're cool with the 'there will be blood' comment?
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  #5606  
Old 12-12-12, 21:52
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Originally Posted by Scott SoCal View Post
Like I said. There are wing-nuts on the right.

To be clear, you're cool with the 'there will be blood' comment?
Let's put it into the context of the full quote, shall we?

Quote:
“There will be blood. There will be repercussions,” state representative Douglas Geiss told the House chamber.

Geiss reminded his colleagues of the violent clashes that accompanied the struggle to form unions in the 1930s and warned that people feel just as strongly about solidarity today.

“If 10 people walk in and say I’m not going to pay dues anymore, there’s going to be fights,” he said."
Huh. Doesn't sound so bad when it's not taken out of context. Here's another quote:

Quote:
But while business may profit from weakening unions, the real motivation for lawmakers is political, said Roland Zullo, a labor relations expert at the University of Michigan.

“This whole right-to-work thing is retribution,” Zullo told AFP. “It’s really about the fact that unions in Michigan were very important actors in helping to elect Democrats this last election.”
Yep.

And to be clear, you're cool with Obama being compared to Hitler on the House floor by R representatives like Louie Gohmert?
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  #5607  
Old 12-12-12, 21:58
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Anybody know who won?
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  #5608  
Old 12-12-12, 22:08
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Garbage. BTW, Indiana is kicking Michigan's *** and that's the biggest reason and middle of the roader like Snyder signed something so 'controversial.'
Not really.

http://indianapublicmedia.org/news/b...sketchy-25572/
http://www.epi.org/publication/pm199...right-to-work/

Quote:
Recently, Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder has pointed to Indiana’s economic success since passing “right to work” as a reason for Michigan to adopt similar legislation.1 Neither the governor nor Indiana officials, however, have been able to provide evidence that “right to work” (RTW) was the determinative factor in even a single company’s decision to locate in the state. A close examination of the law and of data provided by the Indiana Economic Development Commission (IEDC)—which served as the basis for Gov. Snyder’s comments—suggests that there is little reason to think RTW has significantly impacted job growth.
But fact is, workers in RTW states are earning lower wages, receive fewer benefits, etc. Don't take my word for it:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...act_id=1027987

Quote:
Although right-to-work states may be more attractive to business, this does not necessarily translate into enhanced economic verve in the right-to-work state if there is little “trickle-down” from business owners to the non-unionized workers. Findings are that the number of businesses and self-employed are greater on average in right-to-work states, but employment, wages, and per-capita personal income are all lower on average in right-to-work states.
But of course, wages, working conditions, benefits, etc is not what the Rs are concerned about. They couldn't care less. What it's really about is this:

Quote:
Right-to-work laws are not, in fact, really about the right to work.

Rather, they're mostly aimed at curbing unions by sapping their finances. Under federal law, employees cannot be forced to join a union against their will. But because unions are required to represent everyone in the workplaces they organize, they are permitted to negotiate contracts that require non-members to pay fees covering the basic costs of the services the unions provide. Right-to-work states ban those sorts of agreements, which means that no worker ever has to pay a cent to a union, even if it represents them at the collective bargaining table.

This creates an obvious problem for labor organizers: free-riders. If a worker can get most of the benefits of union representation for no charge, they don't have a whole lot of incentive to sign up and pay dues. The fewer fees they collect, the less resources unions have to fund their operations and their political activism. The fewer members they have, the harder it is to orchestrate a strike, and the less leverage they have with employers.
Undermining unions.

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How'd that recall in Wisconsin work out for ya?
eh, small potatoes, he'll be gone next election. How'd that November election work out for ya?

Last edited by VeloCity; 12-12-12 at 22:14.
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  #5609  
Old 12-12-12, 22:15
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Originally Posted by VeloCity View Post
Let's put it into the context of the full quote, shall we?



Huh. Doesn't sound so bad when it's not taken out of context. Here's another quote:

Yep.

And to be clear, you're cool with Obama being compared to Hitler on the House floor by R representatives like Louie Gohmert?
Quote:
Huh. Doesn't sound so bad when it's not taken out of context. Here's another
Okay, you are good with it then. Just checking.

Quote:
And to be clear, you're cool with Obama being compared to Hitler on the House floor by R representatives like Louie Gohmert?
Not okay at all. I'm not familiar with the quote but if it happened (I'll take your word) I condemn it no matter what context.
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  #5610  
Old 12-12-12, 22:38
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Okay, you are good with it then. Just checking.
In the proper context it's clear that he just said that it very possibly is going to lead to trouble - the blood could just as easily be that of union workers. Inappropriate, yep, but cons have taken it out of context and are trying to spin it like it was a direct threat.

Quote:
Not okay at all. I'm not familiar with the quote but if it happened (I'll take your word) I condemn it no matter what context.
Oh he said it all right. But then it's not really playing fair on my part, as it is Louie Gohmert.
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