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  #5611  
Old 12-12-12, 22:50
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Not really.

http://indianapublicmedia.org/news/b...sketchy-25572/
http://www.epi.org/publication/pm199...right-to-work/



But fact is, workers in RTW states are earning lower wages, receive fewer benefits, etc. Don't take my word for it:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...act_id=1027987



But of course, wages, working conditions, benefits, etc is not what the Rs are concerned about. They couldn't care less. What it's really about is this:

Undermining unions.

eh, small potatoes, he'll be gone next election. How'd that November election work out for ya?
Quote:
1 Neither the governor nor Indiana officials, however, have been able to provide evidence that “right to work” (RTW) was the determinative factor in even a single company’s decision to locate in the state. A close examination of the law and of data provided by the Indiana Economic Development Commission (IEDC)—which served as the basis for Gov. Snyder’s comments—suggests that there is little reason to think RTW has significantly impacted job growth.
This is also known as double-speak with some rationalization thrown in.

Quote:
But fact is, workers in RTW states are earning lower wages, receive fewer benefits, etc. Don't take my word for it:
In 2007, Mackinac published a study looking at the prior 30 years. The conclusion;

Quote:
Right-to-work laws change the incentive structure for unions. Because a union in a right-to-work state must persuade individual workers to pay union dues, unions are more likely to focus on bread-and-butter issues of pay, benefits and working conditions that provide immediate benefits to workers, and less likely to negotiate complex agreements that enhance their control over the workplace — and unionized workers — at the cost of impeding productivity.[36]

As a consequence, unions in right-to-work states are less of a drain on productivity, but not at the expense of workers. The benefits for employers are obvious; in a right-to-work state employers receive more productivity for each employee compensation dollar.

For employees, the benefit of a right-to-work law may be less obvious, but flows inevitably from fundamental economics: higher labor productivity in right-to-work states results in more demand for labor, and as demand increases, more jobs are offered and the wages attached to those jobs go up. The basic economic record bears this out: both jobs and wages are increasing faster in right-to-work states, a win-win proposition for workers.

If anything the advantage of right-to-work status is growing: comparing the 30-year period from 1970 to 2000 that Wilson covered with the 2001-2006 period covered by this report, we find larger gaps in GSP growth and job creation, both in favor of right-to-work states. Disposable income remains lower in right-to-work states, but right to-work states had been "catching up" in this category prior to 2000. The process accelerated between 2001 and 2006 to the point where the typical right-to-work state will surpass Michigan in a few years.

For Michigan, a state undergoing a difficult economic transition, the enactment of right-to-work legislation would make the state’s workers more attractive to new employers, giving a boost to employment and wages at a time when both are sagging.

Michigan has a right to be proud of its past as a leader in providing workers with plentiful jobs at excellent wages, but its residents and political leaders must recognize that policies that were effective in the past are not viable now. The state’s acceptance of compulsory union membership, and the burdens it placed on employers, could be borne easily when the state was the center of a lucrative industry that faced little competition.

But all industries confront new competition, and the auto industry in particular faces new competitors that do not bear that burden of compulsory unionism, either because they have avoided union representation or because they have located in right-to-work states. Michigan should not let pride in its past blind it to changes that are taking place today. The right-to-work states are poised to overtake Michigan in both job creation and wages. It is doubtful that Michigan can beat them. The state would be better off joining them.
http://www.mackinac.org/8943

Quote:
But of course, wages, working conditions, benefits, etc is not what the Rs are concerned about. They couldn't care less. What it's really about is this:

Undermining unions.
Nope. It's about a thriving economy and how to achieve it, something which Obama know painfully little about.

Really, you should be thanking Snyder and Walker. Those types of decisions are what is going to drag this economy out of the prolonged Obama hangover. Then you guys will get all the credit all the while saying R's are bent on total destruction and the low information democrat voter will just eat that up.
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  #5612  
Old 12-13-12, 15:53
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Nope. It's about a thriving economy and how to achieve it, something which Obama know painfully little about.
So says the guy who voted twice for GW Bush and the Rs. How'd that thriving economy work out for you?

Quote:
Really, you should be thanking Snyder and Walker. Those types of decisions are what is going to drag this economy out of the prolonged Obama hangover...and the low information democrat voter will just eat that up.
I know it's tough to be rejected, but the American people just aren't buying your side's crap anymore, Scott.

btw speaking of low information voters:

Quote:
What’s particularly revealing, though, is what you see when you single out the poll’s self-identified Republicans. Unlike the overall polling sample, a majority of the poll’s Republicans do not support raising taxes on the wealthy. But they don’t support any of the spending cuts mentioned in the poll either. Not to Medicare or Medicaid, and not to the tax loopholes surveyed either. Republicans, in other words, don't support much of anything except leaving things the way they are now. Which is exactly what we can’t do.

Might there be some spending cuts that Republicans do support that just didn’t get included in this poll? Probably. Polls suggest that most voters are open to cuts in foreign aid. Cutting subsidies for public broadcasting usually plays well with the GOP base. But polls also tell us that voters consistently overestimate how much of the budget is spent on those sorts of things by a large margin: Surveys have shown that respondents estimate that 10-25 percent of the federal budget goes to funding foreign aid, and about 5 percent goes to public broadcasting. The reality is that only about 1 percent funds foreign aid, and only about 0.1 percent is used to subsidize public broadcasting.
http://reason.com/blog/2012/12/12/re...26+Run+Blog%29

The best part:

Quote:
Republicans oppose every option mentioned in the survey.
Apparently they want magic.

Last edited by VeloCity; 12-13-12 at 16:04.
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  #5613  
Old 12-13-12, 17:03
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http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...eaders-are-not

Quote:
Republican leaders are perceived as not making a serious effort to reach an agreement on a budget deal according to a new poll released Thursday, underscoring the political risk of the "fiscal cliff" negotiation for GOP lawmakers.

According to the survey, conducted by Pew Research, only 32 percent of Americans say that Republican leaders are working sincerely to reach an agreement, while 57 percent believe the GOP is not doing so. But more than half of those surveyed — 55 percent — say President Obama is making a serious effort.

Republicans in the House are also suffering from sagging approval ratings. Only a quarter of those surveyed approve of GOP leaders in the Congress, while two-thirds say they disapprove of the job they are doing. By contrast, four in 10 approve of Democratic leadership in Congress, with 53 percent disapproving of Democratic leaders.

President Obama fares the best, with his approval rating hitting 55 percent just over a month after his reelection. That's up five percentage points since July, and double digits from January, when Obama held a 44 percent favorability rating.
The low-information voters have decided that the Rs need to get off their collective asses and do something constructive for a change.

And btw, Nov was even worse for the Rs than it appeared.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...election-chart

Quote:
Americans woke up on November 7 having elected a Democratic president, expanded the Democratic majority in the Senate, and preserved the Republican majority in the House.

That's not what they voted for, though. Most Americans voted for Democratic representation in the House. The votes are still being counted, but as of now it looks as if Democrats have a slight edge in the popular vote for House seats, 49 percent-48.2 percent, according to an analysis by the Washington Post. Still, as the Post's Aaron Blake notes, the 233-195 seat majority the GOP will likely end up with represents the GOP's "second-biggest House majority in 60 years and their third-biggest since the Great Depression."

So how did Republicans keep their House majority despite more Americans voting for the other party—something that has only happened three times in the last hundred years, according to political analyst Richard Winger? Because they drew the lines.

After Republicans swept into power in state legislatures in 2010, the GOP gerrymandered key states, redrawing House district boundaries to favor Republicans. In Pennsylvania, Democratic candidates received half of the votes in House contests, but Republicans will claim about three-quarters of the congressional seats. The same is true in North Carolina. More than half the voters in that state voted for Democratic representation, yet Republicans will fill about 70 percent of the seats. Democrats drew more votes in Michigan than Republicans, but they'll take only 5 out of the state's 14 congressional seats.

Last edited by VeloCity; 12-13-12 at 17:21.
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  #5614  
Old 12-13-12, 18:11
aphronesis aphronesis is offline
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http://newleftreview.org/II/78/goran...e-21st-century

Here, I think, we are experiencing a historical turn, not only in geo-politics but also in terms of inequality. Transnational inequality is declining overall, although the gap between the rich and the poorest has not stopped growing. But inequality within nations is, on the whole, increasing—albeit unevenly, for we cannot speak of any universal logic of ‘globalization’ or technological change without doing violence to the facts.

The poorest American quintile has a lower level of human development than the richest quintile in Bolivia, Indonesia and Nicaragua; it falls below the luckiest 40 per cent of Brazilians and Peruvians, and stands on a level footing with the fourth quintile of Colombia, Guatemala and Paraguay.16


The reformist wing of 20th-century labour has also provided us with an enduring legacy, supplying one of the main parties of government in most European countries today. There is now a trade-union movement of truly global scope—something that was lacking a century ago—although its penetration outside Western Europe is limited, with countries like Brazil, Argentina and South Africa exceptional for the strength of their unions. Social Democratic and Labour parties endure, often with larger electorates than they could boast at the beginning of the last century. Some new territory has been conquered, in Latin America and parts of Africa. But the Socialist International has often won new recruits by discarding any semblance of principle, allowing such unlikely progressives as Laurent Gbagbo and Hosni Mubarak to enroll their political vehicles in its ranks.
Modern, centre-left social democracy may still be a force for progress in some fields, supporting rights for women, children and gays. But its parties have essentially capitulated to liberalism of one kind or another in the field of economic policy. Its original base in the working class has been politically marginalized and eroded by social change. During the current European crisis, the performance of social-democratic parties has ranged from mediocre respectability to a pathetic loss of bearings. The welfare state—a state of civic social rights—is the most important achievement of 20th-century reformism. It is currently under attack, and weakly defended. The one consistent theme of the erratic Romney campaign was its attack on ‘entitlements’ in the European mould. The uk’s Conservatives and New Labour alike have been undermining the British welfare state for some decades now, though it will take further electoral cycles to sap that fortress. In Natoland the welfare state has been taking some hard blows, above all in those countries where it was smallest to begin with, but it is not going to be dismantled altogether. Rather, its policy principles have extended their global reach, finding an echo in China and other Asian countries, and consolidating their hold in much of Latin America. China and Indonesia look set to install universal health insurance well before the usa.

Last edited by aphronesis; 12-13-12 at 18:17.
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  #5615  
Old 12-13-12, 18:27
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Originally Posted by VeloCity View Post
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...eaders-are-not

The low-information voters have decided that the Rs need to get off their collective asses and do something constructive for a change.

And btw, Nov was even worse for the Rs than it appeared.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...election-chart
Quote:
The low-information voters have decided that the Rs need to get off their collective asses and do something constructive for a change.
The cake was baked the minute Obama saw polling that indicated he could successfully blame the R's for going over the cliff. Dumb down people enough and this is the kind of broad opinion that can be manufactured.

It's great politics, which is all Obama has ever been about. Just think, BO will be able to send a wish list to the house asking them to lower taxes for the middle class (because he allowed them to go up) effectively taking a plank away from his opposition.

It's never been doing what's right for the country. It's about winning and it always will be. You like to call it ideological purity.

When nothing happens before 12/31/12, expect a very interesting brawl over the debt limit increase.
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  #5616  
Old 12-13-12, 18:32
aphronesis aphronesis is offline
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Originally Posted by Scott SoCal View Post
The cake was baked the minute Obama saw polling that indicated he could successfully blame the R's for going over the cliff. Dumb down people enough and this is the kind of broad opinion that can be manufactured.

It's great politics, which is all Obama has ever been about. Just think, BO will be able to send a wish list to the house asking them to lower taxes for the middle class (because he allowed them to go up) effectively taking a plank away from his opposition.

It's never been doing what's right for the country. It's about winning and it always will be. You like to call it ideological purity.

When nothing happens before 12/31/12, expect a very interesting brawl over the debt limit increase.
Please do me a favor Scott and draw up a short list of the politicos who you honestly believe are or have been doing what's right for the country? Thanks.

Feel free to elucidate--if you have the time--as to exactly which country you believe that is?

One comprised primarily of small business owners? Or, wait, I remember, it's consumers. Remind me again why people should care about "consumers" as a general class. Will they be suffering terribly if their disposable consumption falls a few points? That would be deeply tragic wouldn't it.

Last edited by aphronesis; 12-13-12 at 18:42.
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  #5617  
Old 12-13-12, 18:53
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So says the guy who voted twice for GW Bush and the Rs. How'd that thriving economy work out for you?

I know it's tough to be rejected, but the American people just aren't buying your side's crap anymore, Scott.

btw speaking of low information voters:



http://reason.com/blog/2012/12/12/re...26+Run+Blog%29

The best part:



Apparently they want magic.

Quote:
How'd that thriving economy work out for you?
Pretty well, thanks for asking.

Quote:
I know it's tough to be rejected, but the American people just aren't getting bought with your side's crap anymore, Scott.
Fixed it.

Quote:
Apparently they want magic.
Democratic voters? Yeah, I think so. Lessee, BO's proposing $86 Billion in new tax revenue ($860 in ten years, or 1.6 trillion depending on his mood). $50 Billion in new stimulus spending, errr $200 billion, again depending on his mood. Spending cuts? Not right now man, but sometime down the road maybe we will slow down the rate of growth in Medicare. Maybe cut some military spending, kinda undefined at the moment but, trust that we will get around to doing something. Someday. Soon. Seriously.

Meanwhile, BO might have a slight chance at a monumental milestone this year... the deficit might actually be slightly under a trillion. Of course it could be higher, who knows? Better yet, who cares?

Certainly not low information voters.

Balanced approach? Not so much, but Barry didn't lie cause he had his fingers crossed.
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  #5618  
Old 12-13-12, 19:09
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Originally Posted by aphronesis View Post
Please do me a favor Scott and draw up a short list of the politicos who you honestly believe are or have been doing what's right for the country? Thanks.

Feel free to elucidate--if you have the time--as to exactly which country you believe that is?

One comprised primarily of small business owners? Or, wait, I remember, it's consumers. Remind me again why people should care about "consumers" as a general class. Will they be suffering terribly if their disposable consumption falls a few points? That would be deeply tragic wouldn't it.
Quote:
Please do me a favor Scott and draw up a short list of the politicos who you honestly believe are or have been doing what's right for the country? Thanks.
Sadly, nobody comes to mind.

Quote:
Remind me again why people should care about "consumers" as a general class. Will they be suffering terribly if their disposable consumption falls a few points? That would be deeply tragic wouldn't it.
Short term? Naw, not too much. And we are all consumers BTW. You too.

Long term? Yeah, it's a real problem.



Quote:
Feel free to elucidate--if you have the time--as to exactly which country you believe that is?
Well, I live in what is still referred to the USA. It would be nice to think that our elected leaders have this country's best interests at heart, but I'm not under many illusions.
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Old 12-13-12, 19:22
aphronesis aphronesis is offline
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Originally Posted by Scott SoCal View Post
Sadly, nobody comes to mind.



Short term? Naw, not too much. And we are all consumers BTW. You too.

Long term? Yeah, it's a real problem.





Well, I live in what is still referred to the USA. It would be nice to think that our elected leaders have this country's best interests at heart, but I'm not under many illusions.
My consumption is as about as near minimal as it can be. (Yes, there are anarchists and greens who live closer to the bone, but I have to make a few professional concessions--and their political theories remain a bit behind the curve of their praxes). And that is by design and it remains ultimately unaffected by the surface ripples of the so-called two party system. But ultimately that isn't even the issue (from my perspective anyway) but that consumer is the default political position of most US citizens. That process has been underway since the Cold War, was mostly refined under Bush junior and aggressively extended by Obama. As you state in a separate post and as is demonstrated by the article that I linked, outside the pockets of the rich and corporate bodies, the reactionary far right and the elite liberal class, there is or are no definable and self-determined political classes in the US. That remains a problem. More so for the Republicans than for the Democrats right now, but ultimately for both in terms of long range advance.

Here, I think is one of our fundamental disagreements: you refer to the people elected to office as "leaders," I hardly think the term applies and has not for some time. So following from that, I don't understand why you keep arguing to Velo that Obama and Dems arent' doing what's right for the country when you can't point to anyone who would step up and do much differently.

Last edited by aphronesis; 12-13-12 at 19:52.
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  #5620  
Old 12-13-12, 19:39
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My consumption is as about as near minimal as it can be. (Yes, there are anarchists and greens who live closer to the bone, but I have to make a few professional concessions--and their political theories remain a bit behind the curve of their praxes). And that is by design and it remains ultimately unaffected by the surface ripples of the so-called two party system. But ultimately that isn't even the issue (from my perspective anyway) but that consumer is the default political position of most US citizens. That process has been underway since the Cold War, was mostly refined under Bush junior and aggressively extended by Obama. As you state in a separate post and as is demonstrated by the article that I linked, outside the pockets of the rich and corporate bodies, the reactionary far right and the elite liberal class, there is or are no definable and self-determined political classes in the US. That remains a problem. More so for the Republicans than for the Democrats right now, but ultimately for both in terms of long range advance.

Here, I think is one of our fundamental disagreements: you refer to the people elected to office as "leaders," I hardly think the term has applied and has not for some time. So following from that, I don't understand why you keep to arguing to Velo that Obama and Dems arent' doing what's right for the country when you can't point to anyone who would step up and do much differently.
Quote:
Here, I think is one of our fundamental disagreements: you refer to the people elected to office as "leaders,"
Agreed. 'Leaders' are hardly an accurate descriptive but they need to be identified by something... how about 'jackasses?'

Quote:
I don't understand why you keep to arguing to Velo that Obama and Dems arent' doing what's right for the country when you can't point to anyone who would step up and do much differently.
Entertainment value and not much else.

Really, when you strip it all down, if the economy continues to flat line, this country will collapse. When/if that happens, you and everyone else will wish that it hadn't. The collapse is preventable but not being prevented.
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