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  #1921  
Old 12-15-12, 19:15
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Amsterhammer Amsterhammer is offline
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Welcome back Foxxy, and welcome to the RG3 fan club.

Either you guys have memories like mine was 30 years ago, or you have instant access to all these stats and names from the past. I can't believe that you guys run around with all that info just sitting there in the back of your heads.
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  #1922  
Old 12-15-12, 20:04
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FoxxyBrown1111 FoxxyBrown1111 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amsterhammer View Post
Welcome back Foxxy, and welcome to the RG3 fan club.

Either you guys have memories like mine was 30 years ago, or you have instant access to all these stats and names from the past. I can't believe that you guys run around with all that info just sitting there in the back of your heads.
Long time ago i entered the RG3 fanclub (actually in since that now (for me) famous Saints-Game; even 5 yard slants were beautiful to watch). But thanks anyway.

And since we have so many rankings in here nowadays, let me give my two cents;
My Top-5-Active-QB´s:
1. RG3 (i know it´s early, but i am still impressed of what i saw in 15 minutes of play)
2. Brees (due his amazing accuracy)
3. Roethlisberger (hate to admit it)
4. Newton (might be also too early to judge)
5. Brady or Rodgers (is one of them a system QB, or even both?), i can´t decide

My Top-5-QB´s i saw playing in my life:
1. Marino (by a mile or two)
2. Warner (just look how much better he was than his direct replacements; outside of his awful 2002 season of course, but which QB didn´t have a bad season?)
3. Elway (he was beautiful to watch from start to finish, poetry in motion, and every game seemed to be an instant classic)
4. Moon (best spiral ever, 6 (?) CFL championships, HC trusted his arm so much, that even running teams like MIN transformed to heavy pass teams with him)
5. McMahon (Ditka and Kotite praised him, not w/o a reason, Kotite went so far to "thank god for McMahon" when Cunningham went down in 1991, he certainly gave it all, his injuries show for it)

My Top-5-QB´s whom i didn´t saw playing (so i have to trust what i read, the numbers and championships):
1. Namath (a lot to do with what Alpe said about him; and he was a lot like BigMäc, gave it all, injured often, but when healthy simply amazing)
2. Luckman (in CHI !!! ahead of time in passing)
3. Unitas (he transformed the NFL into a passing league, ok forget the 70s )
4. Baugh (like Luckman and Unitas, ahead of time)
5. Fouts or Graham (System QB´s or not?; anyway both were either ahead of time (Fouts) or simply "unbeatable" (Graham), so they belong here)

My Top-5-QB´s who didn´t make the NFL:
1. Rohan Davey (he was like RG3, only Belicheat missused him in his offense. Anyway wrong time, wrong team, wrong system. Unlucky. Actually i shouldn´t blame Belicheat. The offense was just made for Brady.)
2. Toby Korrodi (mostly hearsay, but teammates praised him as good as anyone, plus his famous NFL-Combine. Might have been the 2nd coming of Warner. Nobody knows.)
3. Clifford Madison (the QB of our local team in the 80s. Honestly this guy threw 80 yard passes in the air at least once per game. The spiral was as tight as that of Elway or Moon. In the best season our Berlin Eagles outscored the opponents like 747-10 in 10 games. It was absurd, but never boring. Everybody came to see this sensational QB)
4. Doug Flutie (ok, he was in the NFL, but "lost" his prime years in Canada, and only after that, he had his last hurrah in the NFL at grandpa stage.)
5. Damon Allen (he must have been great, playing 23 seasons in CFL, being an outstanding pitcher, and of course holds the all time pro passing record with 72.000+ yards, the genes were there since his bro was RB Marcus Allen).

I didn´t mention true system QB´s like for example all those SF-Guys who also had the greatest WR of all time around.
Neither Montana nor Young had an at least average arm. Both played the "dunk the ball to Rice/Taylor, then they´ll sprint 90 yards into the endzone to pad the QB-Stats".
I credit most of the 49ers sucsess to Walsh, the WRs and a system that was perfect.

Last edited by FoxxyBrown1111; 12-15-12 at 20:12.
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  #1923  
Old 12-15-12, 21:10
Tom T. Tom T. is offline
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Considering Montana, Brady and Rodgers as system quarterbacks tends to make me believe you don't know much about quarterbacking. That, and putting Cam Newton and a rookie above them. And no mention of Peyton Manning?

Last edited by Tom T.; 12-15-12 at 21:29.
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  #1924  
Old 12-15-12, 21:37
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FoxxyBrown1111 FoxxyBrown1111 is offline
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It´s my two cents, so you don´t have to like it.
BTW, i talked about QB´s, not team performance... just that little hint for you; Cassel put up the same stats as Brady in NE, he goes to another team and there you see...! Same with the Young´s, DeBerg´s, Detmer´s or whoever in this world.

No i didn´t know much about QB-Play. But now i know: If a team wins, the QB is great, if a team loses, he´s bad. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Next time around, just base your critic on facts, but don´t criticise for the sake of criticising. ESPN is there for you. We rather discuss here...
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  #1925  
Old 12-15-12, 22:14
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Alpe d'Huez Alpe d'Huez is offline
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Agree on RGIII, he has transformed the entire Redskin organization, and played great. He still has so much potential we've just begun to see. I don't know that I'd have him at 1 though. I also think Luck deserves more credit than you're giving him. Look at what's happened in Indy.

Did you see Brady last week against Houston? It was one perfect pass after another after another, against a supposedly great defense.

Mostly agree on Big Ben. He has the ability to move around in the pocket to keep plays alive and then find receivers better than any QB in the NFL. Partly because of his size. But injuries are taking their toll. This is why you want a big QB, and why Newton (and maybe Foles) will always have a job. If you're big and strong, and can throw the ball at least fairly well and follow the playbook, you'll likely find a home.

Montana was definitely a clutch QB though, cool as a cucumber. You may not be old enough to remember Steve Bono. He played just about as well as Montana's replacement as Young. Joe was somewhat of a system QB, and yes had the best player ever to throw to, but he made big throws and big plays when big games were on the line, as much as any QB ever.

I agree with you on Warner. This guy did more than anyone asked, and though he didn't have a cannon of an arm, he had a strong enough one considering he was very accurate deep.

I remember Dan Fouts, and he was a hell of a QB in a throw always offense. Heck of a nice guy too.

The problem I have with Moon is that he wthrew for thousands of yards between the 10 yard lines, or when games were out of hand. He did throw beautiful spirals with great motion, but he was the opposite of Montana. I just saw Warren turn mediocre in way too many big games.

Thanks for tossing Namath in there. People over about 50 might remember him, but he too had great deep accuracy and perfect motion. But he was tough as hell and definitely made his teams better, no question.

You're biased, with McMahon, but he was definitely very tough and gave everything to the sport. Considering he played much of his career injured, and still played quite well says something.

QB's that never made it was interesting. I'd like to see one of Madison's 80 yard throws though. It sounds like urban legend, like Jim Druckenmiller being able to throw from goal line to goal line, which of course no one ever captured on tape, because it was BS (though he did have one of the biggest arms ever, and biggest head case ever).
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  #1926  
Old 12-16-12, 00:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpe d'Huez View Post
Agree on RGIII, he has transformed the entire Redskin organization, and played great. He still has so much potential we've just begun to see. I don't know that I'd have him at 1 though. I also think Luck deserves more credit than you're giving him. Look at what's happened in Indy.

Did you see Brady last week against Houston? It was one perfect pass after another after another, against a supposedly great defense.

Mostly agree on Big Ben. He has the ability to move around in the pocket to keep plays alive and then find receivers better than any QB in the NFL. Partly because of his size. But injuries are taking their toll. This is why you want a big QB, and why Newton (and maybe Foles) will always have a job. If you're big and strong, and can throw the ball at least fairly well and follow the playbook, you'll likely find a home.

Montana was definitely a clutch QB though, cool as a cucumber. You may not be old enough to remember Steve Bono. He played just about as well as Montana's replacement as Young. Joe was somewhat of a system QB, and yes had the best player ever to throw to, but he made big throws and big plays when big games were on the line, as much as any QB ever.

I agree with you on Warner. This guy did more than anyone asked, and though he didn't have a cannon of an arm, he had a strong enough one considering he was very accurate deep.

I remember Dan Fouts, and he was a hell of a QB in a throw always offense. Heck of a nice guy too.

The problem I have with Moon is that he wthrew for thousands of yards between the 10 yard lines, or when games were out of hand. He did throw beautiful spirals with great motion, but he was the opposite of Montana. I just saw Warren turn mediocre in way too many big games.

Thanks for tossing Namath in there. People over about 50 might remember him, but he too had great deep accuracy and perfect motion. But he was tough as hell and definitely made his teams better, no question.

You're biased, with McMahon, but he was definitely very tough and gave everything to the sport. Considering he played much of his career injured, and still played quite well says something.

QB's that never made it was interesting. I'd like to see one of Madison's 80 yard throws though. It sounds like urban legend, like Jim Druckenmiller being able to throw from goal line to goal line, which of course no one ever captured on tape, because it was BS (though he did have one of the biggest arms ever, and biggest head case ever).
Thanks for the flowers. Now that i call a discussion with a basis.

The only way for RG3 to "choke" is either injury or future psychological problems. Otherwise he might end up as the best all time.

Since "clutch play" evens out over the long run, the judge (me ) is still out on Luck. Either he starts to play 60 mins, or he once will wonder where all the 4th Qtr comebacks are gone (the guys at all kind of research sites come to the same conclusion: as early as one season later all those close game records of 7-1 do even out or worse, go the other direction).

No, no, i just came back now. So i didn´t saw him. But surely i believe you that Brady picked the D apart with precise pass after pass. I guess he had all the time in the world to set, scan the field, and then step into his throws with a perfect follow through to get the ball to the open receiver untouched (i witnessed this many times the past few years).
As one scout once said: "Every NFL-QB can pick any D apart if given enough time to throw" (Me, i wouldn´t go that far if i just remember the ugly throws of Cade McNown or Rick Mirer).
Anyway, i still think Brady is a lot better than his replacements. That´s why i have him in my T-5. And he never had terrible meltdowns like PO-Peyton. He lost his games in style, at least... That´s why Peyton isn´t in my T-5 BTW.

I remember Bono-Young-Montana-Grbac. All of them. All posted the same effieciency numbers. It´s not that Montana didn´t have his bad PO-Games either. They are just forgotten (like the NYG clobbering in 1986, or the unable to score enough TD´s game in 1990). Anyway, Montana was cool and very very successful. No doubt. But he still was a system QB with great talent around him and the best Offense mind back then (Walsh). And he had an below average NFL-Arm. I guess at least 60* other QB´s of his time would have had the same career outcome as Montana. He was just incredible lucky. In the right place, at the right time, with the perfect system to hide his weaknesses and all lucky bounces in the right time (for example just one snap before his TD to Taylor, Billups (?) dropped the 100% sure game saving INT; or all those 60 yard "clutch" TD-Passes... in reality all of them were 5yd slants or outs to Taylor/Rice who danced their ways into the EZ).

... more later ...

* Now the heat will come my way. I am ready for the clobbering.
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  #1927  
Old 12-16-12, 00:49
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FoxxyBrown1111 FoxxyBrown1111 is offline
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Clifford Madison:


OMG, that was the greaties, the 80s. Those Berlin Adler were a lot like the 85-Bears.
First there was the names;
Clarence Rambo, the RB (like Stallone)
Stefan Mücke, the DT (a name like the famous movie with Bud Spencer)
... and then the stories (live seen)
Like this one:
Score is 23-23 in the 89-German-Bowl, inside TMW, ball at midfield. The audience is silent, in waiting for something special. Indeed something special was in the air.
Madison drops back to pass and heaves one of his famous passes into the EZ... TD. The crowd runs mad. But wait. A flag... Offensive holding. Game over. No, no... Madison drops back again, another heave into the EZ... TD, again. Wow. But wait. Too much time left for Cologne. Oh §hit...
And here comes Mücke. The DT (!!!) clinches the game with an INT.
BTW, AFIR, Madison threw 400+ that night, and the running game was not present (Rambo had like minus 4 yds rushing for the game!)
What a game. The beer is running the whole night. How did we make it home to Berlin from Nürnberg? I don´t know.

Yes, Madison threw them 80 yards in the air. We even "prayed" for short KO returns, just to see the bombs week-in-week-out. Those days never come back.

One year later, another thriller. Berlin scores behind Madisons passing, Colonge behind QB Davis running. In the end he couldn´t keep up, so BER won 50-38. Another drunk train drive home. This time from Düsseldorf. One more (final) hallelujah yet another year later: Another thriller against Davis in Hamburg. Final score is 22-21. That was it... until Rohan Davey arrived for one famous year in the spring of 2004.

PS:
Mücke and Madison in their final days (1995)

Last edited by FoxxyBrown1111; 12-16-12 at 01:11.
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  #1928  
Old 12-16-12, 01:26
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Alpe d'Huez Alpe d'Huez is offline
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Well, obviously you didn't watch the Patriots-Texans game, or you would not have made such an inane post.

I would also argue Vick did not have a very good year last season. He cost his team some wins, his stats weren't very impressive and he contributed little to the "dream team", regardless of how high his YPP was (which is actually a team stat as much as individual, as Merckx pointed out quite a few posts ago). His completion percentage and QB rating were low, and his TD/INT ratio 18/14. No, in ten years Vick had two good years, somewhat in 2003 with a good playoff win, and in 2010. That's it. He's quite possibly the most over-hyped player in the game today, in years. All because he can scramble and run, which borders on uncoachable. As to why he's no longer playing, it's because he sucks. He's a turnover machine who makes bad decisions and poor throws as a QB. While some pundits kept saying "just wait" the guys on NFC Playbook, who all supported him before the start of the season, would routinely analyze his play and point out his poor decision making. He eventually left a game with a concussion, and despite healing and being completely cleared, Andy Reid sat him, and said they were going with Foles for the rest of the year. As I said, comparing their stats isn't very fair considering Nick had to jump in at the worst possible time, with virtually zero reps with the first team, and he's a rookie.

I'll let someone else take a stab at your comments on Montana.

Here's Jaws list of the top 30 QB's in the NFL heading into this season. His reasoning is pretty sound when you break it down.

Since you do like to chat about arm strength, here's a cool link to a Bleacher Report article listing them from 1-32 at the start of the season. Not to give it away, but I guessed #5, #2 and #4 at the top, followed by 1, and 10. To me #12 is way too high. 24 could perhaps move up a few points, but isn't accurate deep, and 29 has shown this year he belongs several points higher as well. As Jaws says, it's definitely important, though not everything, or Boller and Russell would be leading the NFL today.
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  #1929  
Old 12-16-12, 01:56
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FoxxyBrown1111 FoxxyBrown1111 is offline
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Quote:
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Well, obviously you didn't watch the Patriots-Texans game.

As Jaws says, it's definitely important, though not everything, or Boller and Russell would be leading the NFL today.
No i couldn´t watch, i said it from the beginning. I wasn´t around.
I just saw Brady from 2011 and before. Still, he made my personal T-5. So there is no problem at all i think.

Russell had mental issues. The same thing happens to weak armed QB´s (there are many, many).
I don´t know where this Boller stuff comes from. All i heard is that he threw the ball from his knees trou the goal posts.
So when you have got many strong armed QB´s, a lot of them bust, of course. OTOH, there are many famous ones (Favre, Testa, Schroeder, Elway, Cunningham, etc, etc, etc).
And if you have many weak arms who made it into the NFL (just wonder how), even more bust (like Mirer, McNown, Frye, Hanie, Greisen, Krenzel, Booty, Brennan, etc, etc, etc).
After all, i take the strong armed accurate QB any time over the weak armed accurate QB.
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  #1930  
Old 12-16-12, 02:55
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Amsterhammer Amsterhammer is offline
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Late breaking horror news -

"Robert Griffin III will not play for Redskins vs. Browns on Sunday"

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