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  #10151  
Old 12-18-12, 08:16
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Originally Posted by The Hitch View Post
Yeah we get the trick by now and no ones buying it. We know your not an insider so stop claiming to be one.
Weird thing to post. Have you been drinking?
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  #10152  
Old 12-18-12, 09:12
Wiggo Warrior Wiggo Warrior is offline
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Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
Good post, WW.

According to affidavits from the USADA investigation, 2006 is the year everyone stopped doping, then according to JV, a truce was called in 2008.

Having read David Millar's book now, the whole "track focus" thing looks even less explanatory in terms of reason for lack of performance from Brad, for me. Mainly due to the clean Millar beating a doped Armstrong in a Tour prologue, matching Brad in another prologue and winning national TT and IP titles, all clean after 2 years out of the sport.

Couple this with Brad's team mate, Rob Hayles having an interesting Hct in 2008, very deftly handled by DB, and Brad's apparently very amorous feelings towards Armstrong the year he broke into the big leagues (2009), there's still too much of a cloud of doping doubt surrounding his rise to the top for me.

My concern with the track results graph you suggest remains. Namely that it's such a small pond that the big fish's accomplishments are too greatly amplified. The assumption is also that he was clean riding the track. It's pretty clear doping was going on when Brad was soundly beating other IPers, which further compounds my unease about that graph.

Add a slight 2nd week blood profile tremor for both his 2009 Giro and Tour, and I'm too far gone to accept this performance from 2009 on has been clean.
Re. bolded section, I saw some discussion around observations that all the blood profiles taken at that time in the Tour showed similar tremors indicating a testing variation, I haven't seen anything about the Giro results, but this is the main reason why I think all blood profiles should be released not just those of a few riders, and can understand the team being wary this time even if Brad has repeated that he'd like to release his own but has been advised against it.

Rob Hayles tripped a 50.3 Hct with a 'normal' base of 46, well within the actual normal human physiological range that I have seen quoted various places as extending up to 52 Hct. He had a two week monitoring period, returned to normal levels and was given an exemption certificate. DB's immediate reaction of unconditional support doesn't indicate any suspicion on his part of Rob Hayles doping to me.

On the David Millar note, it is a while since I read his book and got it from the library so cannot re-read it immediately, but I seem to recall his main track interest was based around competing in the Commonwealth Games for Scotland. He was four years of development as a rider ahead of Brad though, and far from as focused on the track, in fact, given Brad's earlier years of road invisibility you could almost say Brad's only now in his 4th year of real development as a road rider now (or 7th if you include the Cofidis years, with a gap year taken for Beijing in 2008 at HCT/Columbia and after the Moreni strop and kit binning episode). Bradley McGee was at the same state of development as Millar and can be more directly compared in terms of relative performance having come up against the pair of them road and track. I haven't done this yet though sounds like something to keep me busy for a few days if I get bored over Christmas.

One of the things that got me thinking about the motivation/mental side of his early performance by the way was the reflective interview with Sandy Casar on CN where he said none of the riders back then would ever know how good they could have been because of the doping. He is one year older than Brad, has had two more years in the peloton (and is clearly far more eloquent on the subject).

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/casa...ied-everything
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  #10153  
Old 12-18-12, 09:24
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Given Hayles had been competing for some time, it seems very unusual that he did not already have an exemption. And his Hct was super high the night before the WC. Very handy indeed.

Did you read he received an exemption? I looked at as many articles as I could find - thin on the ground - and it was never mentioned.

And a base of 46? Again, not seen that mentioned anywhere.

He wasn't the only rider who was given a holiday that day, and did not make the Olympic team despite a great road season. DB may have supported him in the press, but he did mention considering quitting, and did not bring Hayles to the Olympics - so I'm going 50/50 on the "support" angle from Brailsford.


As for being wary that testing anomalies show up as doping indicators, that's easily fixed - just like I told JV of the "everyone tested high pre-2012 Giro" fame: release the rest, and let's see.

*crickets*
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  #10154  
Old 12-18-12, 09:36
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Bit in the Guardian about British cycling

Since suggestions have been made that the success is down to a Eastern-bloc style doping programme. It shows the money that has been poured into the sport, and the focus on development from grassroots and boosting participation on all levels.

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"My own personal experience growing up in north Wales was falling into a sport which just seemed like a very odd thing to be doing," he said. "All my friends thought it was an odd thing to be doing. When it came to the point where I wanted to try to do it seriously, the only way you could do it was to go and live abroad.

"To go from that, from what really was a minority sport with 10-mile time trials on a Tuesday night, to where the sport currently stands in British culture now is remarkable."
Mainly relevant to the discussion me and Libertine Seguros where having some pages earlier, illustrating how 'foreign' road-racing seemed, and the necessity to go abroad to pursue it, and how that since 1997 and lottery funding that has changed very dramatically.
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  #10155  
Old 12-18-12, 09:39
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Originally Posted by armchairclimber View Post
Weird thing to post. Have you been drinking?
Its not weird. You are constantly claiming to have some 6th sense knowledge that wiggins did not dope. Even if everyone else on sky may have and lance won clean and the world is flat and whatever else, the one thing, you assure us, that you are certain of in this world is that wiggins did not dope, as if you were there with him to see it every hour of the tour.

But we don't but it.
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If there's a 1% suspicion or doubt that a team is working with certain doctors, then they shouldn't be invited to the Tour de France - as simple as that.
journalist with integrity.
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  #10156  
Old 12-18-12, 09:53
Wiggo Warrior Wiggo Warrior is offline
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Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
Given Hayles had been competing for some time, it seems very unusual that he did not already have an exemption. And his Hct was super high the night before the WC. Very handy indeed.

Did you read he received an exemption? I looked at as many articles as I could find - thin on the ground - and it was never mentioned.

And a base of 46? Again, not seen that mentioned anywhere.


He wasn't the only rider who was given a holiday that day, and did not make the Olympic team despite a great road season. DB may have supported him in the press, but he did mention considering quitting, and did not bring Hayles to the Olympics - so I'm going 50/50 on the "support" angle from Brailsford.


As for being wary that testing anomalies show up as doping indicators, that's easily fixed - just like I told JV of the "everyone tested high pre-2012 Giro" fame: release the rest, and let's see.

*crickets*
I did read that but not sure where, same article I think for both. I will try to dig it up later but have to go to work now.
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  #10157  
Old 12-18-12, 09:54
Wallace and Gromit Wallace and Gromit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
...[Hayles] did not make the Olympic team despite a great road season. DB may have supported him in the press, but he did mention considering quitting, and did not bring Hayles to the Olympics - so I'm going 50/50 on the "support" angle from Brailsford.
Hayles was always going to be a marginal selection for either the TP or Madison given the quality of the rest of the squad. Once Clancy and Thomas got established, he was only really ever "Super Sub" material. That said, he'd have probably been a better partner for Cav in the Madison than Wiggo was!
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  #10158  
Old 12-18-12, 09:56
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Originally Posted by Wallace and Gromit View Post
Hayles was always going to be a marginal selection for either the TP or Madison given the quality of the rest of the squad. Once Clancy and Thomas got established, he was only really ever "Super Sub" material. That said, he'd have probably been a better partner for Cav in the Madison than Wiggo was!
Yeah Cav was a bit miffed from memory. And the stench followed him home, yuck.

I thought they took 5-6 riders for the TP, not just 4?
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  #10159  
Old 12-18-12, 09:59
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armchairclimber armchairclimber is offline
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Originally Posted by The Hitch View Post
Its not weird. You are constantly claiming to have some 6th sense knowledge that wiggins did not dope. Even if everyone else on sky may have and lance won clean and the world is flat and whatever else, the one thing, you assure us, that you are certain of in this world is that wiggins did not dope, as if you were there with him to see it every hour of the tour.

But we don't but it.
I can't answer for the way you interpret my posts. Nowhere have I suggested that Lance won clean either.

My clarity regarding Wiggins has nothing to do with 6th sense, nor does it necessarily imply that I am an insider. If you care about the issue, which I doubt, you'll have to give the possibilities more consideration than you have so far.

You might be better waiting for him to be popped so that you can sneer at me with real conviction.
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  #10160  
Old 12-18-12, 10:20
Wallace and Gromit Wallace and Gromit is offline
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Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
I thought they took 5-6 riders for the TP, not just 4?
Steven Burke was the #2 IP man in Beijing. He was the 5th man in the TP squad.

I don't know what the limits were on track team numbers in 2008. They were certainly so tight in 2012 that the French registered Bourgain (Team Sprint and Kierin) in the road squad (he climbed off after the neutral zone!) and the Germans registered Forsterman (also a sprinter) as a mountain biker.

There may have been similarly tight limits in 2008. I recall talk that Cav was in the frame to be a sub in the TP squad if required. He was a low 4:20s IP man in those days, and would presumably be able to deal with the fast start required in a TP.

I think Hayles simply wasn't good enough to make the cut.
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