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  #51  
Old 12-14-12, 14:41
Deagol Deagol is offline
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Originally Posted by ghostofjoy View Post
sorry, i meant to say steve tilford. not sure a crawford rant would be quite as entertaining.
Back "in the day" when TD had his old website, there was a page on it called "Rick's Rant".

Maybe now it's time for someone else to rant
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  #52  
Old 12-20-12, 03:20
thisboyshouldliveinabubble thisboyshouldliveinabubble is offline
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Have TD's links with Schumi been discussed much? Secret Swiss bank accounts to pay for 'coaching'? Started at the Fassa days and kept it up til JV got a hold of him.
TD showing up for training camp with garmin in Silver City and after internal controls being told in front of the whole team that the old tricks wouldn't fly?
Going to interbike and hooking up with his now wife after the Sinclair party while still married to KJ. His current wife conveniently left some undergarments in his luggage for his now ex-wife to find. Classy.
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  #53  
Old 12-20-12, 03:28
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Originally Posted by thisboyshouldliveinabubble View Post
Have TD's links with Schumi been discussed much? Secret Swiss bank accounts to pay for 'coaching'? Started at the Fassa days and kept it up til JV got a hold of him.
TD showing up for training camp with garmin in Silver City and after internal controls being told in front of the whole team that the old tricks wouldn't fly?
Going to interbike and hooking up with his now wife after the Sinclair party while still married to KJ. His current wife conveniently left some undergarments in his luggage for his now ex-wife to find. Classy.
We don't want to hear reality in the clinic....STOP
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  #54  
Old 12-20-12, 07:47
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Originally Posted by thisboyshouldliveinabubble View Post
TD showing up for training camp with garmin in Silver City and after internal controls being told in front of the whole team that the old tricks wouldn't fly?
I repeated this story from Tilford's blog and JV cracked jokes about me, put me down, got a few others to join in and said categorically that this story was false.

Just sayin'.

Went something like this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo
Legend - meh if I thought it was a fact I would say, "it is a fact". If I think it's a legend, I will say - legend has it. This is different to a fact.

If you honestly believe you can tell that an U23 rider is clean from 1 test the day after that rider won Liege-Baston-Liege espoir, and that same rider can be anemic (Hct 40% wtf) and put out 6W/kg then you need to take a good hard look at yourself.

Here's the legend, 4th hand now, not a fact, just a legend. A story.


Quote:
http://www.stevetilford.com/?p=21510...1#comment-9785

Disclaimer, this story is third hand but it rung true at the time because it was told to me by people on the inside without motivation to fabricate. In 2008, I was having lunch with another domestic rider. At that time Slipstream was a mostly domestic team and my old training partner had several friends on the team (I had recently quit racing).

The story goes like this. My training partnerís friend gives him the play by play of Slipstreamís training camp. The highlight that stood out was Tommy D. He was was just flying at camp, beating guys by minutes up the climbs. He stood out like a sore thumb. The story goes that one night at dinner, JV says that someone on the team has tested positive (on an internal control). That positive rider knows who he is, that everyone knows who he is. That rider has two options, clean up right now or quit. Nobody knew whether or not Tommy D had actually tested positive or if JV was just scaring him into sobriety.

2008 was not exactly a repeat of 2006 when Tommy D proclaimed that he rode 7.0 watts/kg up the climbs at the Vuelta and was stronger than Vino. But then again 2007 wasnít a standout year either, and that was a year before he got to Slipstream.

If the training camp story is true, it doesnít seem like JV identified a diamond in the rough. He took on a doper that continued to dope when he was at Slipstream until he was scared into riding clean. Good for Slipstream and JV for running a clean team but it is a different story than JV is telling about how Danielson joined Slipstream as a clean rider.
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Originally Posted by JV1973 View Post
Let me answer you in a more basic form: NO, there is no Tom Danielson pos test.

I was poking fun at Wiggo's "I heard from a friend of a buddy of my next door neighbor's son's brother's best friend's 1st cousin that Tom had a test..."

You guys read into everything I say soooooo much. For those of you that have actually met me, you'd realize I pretty much spout out what's going on in my head. Prudence isn't my best trait.
Personally, I think JV will say whatever he thinks needs to be said to sustain the perception that his team is clean, whether true or false.

If you have more information, would love to hear it.
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  #55  
Old 12-20-12, 13:28
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TD showing up for training camp with garmin in Silver City and after internal controls being told in front of the whole team that the old tricks wouldn't fly?
This never happened
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  #56  
Old 12-20-12, 14:42
Argyle_Fan Argyle_Fan is offline
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Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
There was an anonymous comment on Steve Tilford's blog saying TommyD got sprung doping via internal Garmin control at training camp and told to tone it down.

When asked, JV denied it entirely.
Wiggo - "When asked, JV denied it entirely." (???... hmmm...)

Well - Yes and No, 'Dear Wiggo';

JV did *not* in fact deny it *entirely*. If you read JV's precise wording very carefully he in fact (intentionally or unintentially?) only *partially* denied the TD allegations, and he later on chose not to respond with any clarity to my attempted clarifications re. 'suspicious TD testing' vs. 'pos TD test'.

It is *still* indeed a possibility that TD *did* indeed have a (merely?) *suspicious* internal test, (albeit not I believe a definite 'pos'), even taking into account JV's responses so far (and for reasons further explained later, we'll not be getting a great deal of further commentary from JV on the matter).

What JV *actually* said was that there was 'no TD positive', but he proffered no explicit denial of a 'TD suspicous test' (which I later explicitly requested from him, and did not receive). We already knew that there can't have been an unambiguously *positive* test, since TD would have been suspended from the team and presumably reported to WADA, according to team policy, and furthermore, if there had have been a pos test, JV would have had him testify to it at the USADA hearings in any case.

Therefore, the only viable explanation in any case (if there is any truth to this rather anonymous rumour in cyberspace) would be a *suspicious* test. Which in Garmin usually leads to a 'warning' (which supposedly occured according to our 'ultra-reliable(...)' source 'Rick'), and an internal unpublicized 2-week moratorium from racing (anyone know if TD raced in the 2 weeks after said training camp??).

Therefore the real question in fact concerns a purpouted TD *suspicious* test.

JV's posts (intentionally??) gave the initial impression that there wasn't (? - hmmm...) in fact a 'suspicious' TD test, but if you read them again a little more carefully (e.g. I myself initially did (incorrectly??) read them all as a unequivocal denial...), you will in fact discover that he in fact evaded the specific issue of a 'TD suspicious test', side-stepping instead into a discussion of the 'most suspicious result on the team', which happened to be from a rider judged in the end to be 'clean'.

All of the above does not preclude a TD test which was in fact 'suspicious' (but presumably less so than the 'most suspicious' Garmin test result, taking fully into account JV's somewhat limited comments).

Seems that TD has not produced the most suspicious result on the team, whatever may or may not have occurred wrt the drugs?? In any case, the way the Garmin internal controls work, they are designed to flag up suspicious tests for preventative action before the results would become positive, so it would not be entirely surprising if there were 'suspicious, to be followed-up' results from TD, or any other rider flagged up, which were only somewhat 'scientifically/unambiguously' 'suspicious', quite possibly less 'numerically' suspicious than the 'most suspicious result' they had as yet so far found on their team. Therefore unsurprising if a suspicious result with genuinely worrying implications has less extreme 'numerical values' than the most 'numerically suspicious' result which turned out in the end to have resulted from innocent human variation etc. (remembering variations in training regime/race programme/individual variation/illnesses in particular etc.).

I would suggest that if 'Dear Wiggo' wants to follow this up any further, then he needs to find a non-anonymous source to back it all up (perhaps privately) - he could always try to work out who 'Rick' or his (hypothesized...) 'training partner in Garmin' is if he's determined. Since an anonymous comment on a blog forum isn't really enough to back up anything more than innuendo and speculation.

I would not think that we'll get anything more from JV on the matter, and would not expect him to give out any more info anyway due to rider confidentiality etc., whatever is the factual case on the issue in question. I think he gave out about as much info as he reasonably could in the circumstances (albeit wording it all to dissuade further follow-up - although I am hoping JV will find the time to comment on some of the more general scientific questions re. e.g. judging potential distortion re. poss false-positives in test-results from recent dopers relating to any medium-long-ish-term after-effects of EPO administration - see final 2 paragraphs of this post).

I did try to follow it all up a few weeks ago in the 'JV Talks' thread, but there was not a great deal of interest, presumably due to the rather tenuous nature of the purpouted 'evidence', Dear Wiggo's reputation in the Clinic (well, we do always need a few 'straw-man' arguments that we can rebut convincingly...), and my over-lengthy writing style. And I wasn't much expecting JV to reply anyway, as he wouldn't be in a position to (unless my hypothesis re. a 'suspicious' test was in fact untrue, therefore make of his chosen(?) 'silence' on these questions what ye will...). I imagine that anything substantive would only ever come out (if there is indeed any truth to any of it) via a voluntary confession by TD.

My Opinion re. TD Rumours?
I'd guess (but who knows, and who can ever know apart from TD himself?) that the most likely thing would be that TD did indeed have a 'suspicious' internal test. But that the (presumable?) explanation was that TD was clean on joining the team and remained so, but that there were residual effects from his then-recent prior doping (which had only stopped a few months earlier? And furthermore, TD had been a heavy user? Not too sure of the timescales involved here?). I'm not too clear on the science though, but IIRC, long-term EPO administration messes up your body's regulation of natural EPO production, which could easily(??) cause a false-positive long after exogenous administration has ceased?? How long can this happen for, how does it occur, and how much person-to-person variation is there??

Regarding the variation between individuals, then how often might a nowadays-clean former user be wrongly flagged-up as having gone back on the drugs, as seems might have happened with TD?? Is the science on this understood, especially wrt former heavy users, whom I doubt would have participated in many controlled studies? Is it an issue that the teams running internal controls have looked into much particularly, wrt recruiting the 'newly-clean'?? It is the interpersonal variation in particular which makes the issue tricky, I imagine, and I wonder if Garmin et.al. have as yet looked into all of that in enough detail to reach the best-calculable balance of probablilities in these kinds of cases??? Reckon you got the judgement right wrt TD????

- Argyle_Fan

Last edited by Argyle_Fan; 12-23-12 at 12:21. Reason: Improving formatting & wording - nothing of substance.
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  #57  
Old 12-20-12, 19:45
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goggalor goggalor is offline
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In my mind, the most likely explanation is the boy Tommy was on the sauce and still is. I don't get why anyone would assume he is just a "former" druggie. Once a dopeur...
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  #58  
Old 12-21-12, 20:36
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Originally Posted by goggalor View Post
In my mind, the most likely explanation is the boy Tommy was on the sauce and still is. I don't get why anyone would assume he is just a "former" druggie. Once a dopeur...
If he's still at it he's heavily toned it down. That 2006 Vuelta with Vino, Kash, Valverde, and Saunier Duval was extraordinary - like playing PCM on x8.
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  #59  
Old 12-22-12, 00:06
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Originally Posted by will10 View Post
If he's still at it he's heavily toned it down. That 2006 Vuelta with Vino, Kash, Valverde, and Saunier Duval was extraordinary - like playing PCM on x8.
I'm sure he's toned it down like everyone else, but he was still 8th in the 2011 Tour. The story is he supposedly went straight after a career of cheating, then pulled off a top ten in the biggest race on earth? I'm just not a believer. Vandevelde's 4th in 2008 was far more outrageous than Tommy D's 8/9th, though.
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  #60  
Old 02-01-13, 04:00
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Originally Posted by goggalor View Post
In my mind, the most likely explanation is the boy Tommy was on the sauce and still is. I don't get why anyone would assume he is just a "former" druggie. Once a dopeur...
right. this is my postion. risible to think they did what was necessary, gave up, then their results improved because the peloton in 2008 placed some arbitrary amnesty on hardcore PEDs

my @rse
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