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  #5841  
Old 12-21-12, 13:05
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I was trying to point out to the commies that all this issue really revolves around is responsible ownership and that maybe we should enforce the laws that we have and do a little better job in screening the buyers. Prohibition was a failure and extreme gun laws will be as well. There are far too many sport shooters, hunters etc to suggest as some of the shrill screamers have, that all guns should be confiscated, outlawed and beaten into plow shares. Hell, it's been pretty tame here compared to some of the comments and arguments I've been reading in different places.
But it isn't simply about "responsible ownership." If it were, one could simply legislate to that. Though this isn't possible. Prohibitionism was a failure, because it was founded on a silly puritanical worldview that has nothing to do with imposing restriction son the sales of arms. Every other country in the so called developed world that has them in place also has far less gun related homicide rates. There is no more proof needed as to their effectivness and success.

It's thus rather about a hideous culture being egged on and abetted by a deplorable market ideology, as well as a featherbrained mentality that in America is particularly acute. Such performed mental habits have found popular expression in a number of diversions: from violent video games, to films, to peurile group activities like GI Joe commando survival adventures in the woods. There is, consequently, an entire market predicated upon promoting and even sexing up a bit the US arms culture.

Regulating the gun market more severely is but one of several measures necessary to counteract this trend. It starts there, however. Let's not kid ourselves on this point, as do many here.

Last edited by rhubroma; 12-21-12 at 13:10.
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  #5842  
Old 12-21-12, 13:17
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But it isn't simply about "responsible ownership." If it were, one could simply legislate to that. Though this isn't possible. Prohibitionism was a failure, because it was founded on a silly puritanical worldview that has nothing to do with imposing restriction son the sales of arms. Every other country in the so called developed world that has them in place also has far less gun related homicide rates. There is no more proof needed as to their effectivness and success.

It's thus rather about a hideous culture being egged on and abetted by a deplorable market ideology, as well as a featherbrained mentality that in America is particularly acute. Such performed mental habits have found popular expression in a number of diversions: from violent video games, to films, to peurile group activities like GI Joe commando survival adventures in the woods. There is, consequently, an entire market predicated upon promoting and even sexing up a bit the US arms culture.

Regulating the gun market more severely is but one of several measures necessary to counteract this trend. It starts there, however. Let's not kid ourselves on this point, as do many here.
Let's also not kid ourselves that the gun market will be more severely regulated and nothing else will happen on the other points. No meaningful improvements in treating mental health but you will be thrilled because something was done. All emotion and zero results, same as it ever was.

Everybody has seen this movie before.
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  #5843  
Old 12-21-12, 13:23
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You paint an ideologically biased portrait of your fellow countryman, frenchfry, which you deliver as a non-partisan cirtique.

A certain level of assistentialismo also exists in Italy, however the idea about wealth as antagonistic to the interests of collective net worth and the purpose of taxation are embedded within a concept of res publica. And it is an age old one. Any attempts, therefore, to brand social initiatives as merely opportunistic at the personal level thus misses the point. Nothing is perfect, however the alternative is far worse.


As per your initial observation that the French view wealth is "ill gotton," there is of course a certain measure of XIX socialism, but also centuries of Catholicism, in that, and it is the same in Italy. However, one must admit there are concrete examples of how some wealth is precisely just that, like for instance in the great Italian chivalric "reformer" Silvio Berlusconi.
Maybe not "ideologically biased" as much as influenced by the recent debate close to home. If I lived in the US, I would likely prioritise my distaste for the failings of unfetterred capitalism.

Of course the wealth of some is less "deserved" than that of others, although this remains a highly subjective judgement. Just as there are many who sponge off the welfare state, either passively (making lifestyle decisions to live off the state instead of through individual effort) or aggressively (collecting welfare or unemployment while working as undeclared). Some wealth, however, is the result of personal initiative and creativity, hard work, and risk taking. Should the fruits of this work be confiscated by the state?

There is a compromise to be found, which is likely situated somewhere between the French and the US systems/cultures.

Of course any legitimate social welfare system depends on a healthy political situation, which is far from the case here. They are all at the trough of public funds, corrupted by power and influence. It is scary when the government has the power to redistribute the wealth of a nation - and unlikely that this can happen in an acceptable way. No better than leaving the same power to the greedy capitalists.
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Old 12-21-12, 13:24
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Let's also not kid ourselves that the gun market will be more severely regulated and nothing else will happen on the other points. No meaningful improvements in treating mental health but you will be thrilled because something was done. All emotion and zero results, same as it ever was.

Everybody has seen this movie before.
No I won't be thrilled Scott. As usual, your analysis misses the point.

Whether or not those other things will be addressed (and you're correct in pointing out they won't be, which is why I won't be thrilled), does not negate the necessity of the primary action to be taken. As I've said before, by now the US state and American society owes it to the memory of those 20 slaughtered children.
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  #5845  
Old 12-21-12, 13:26
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Ok I understand now. These Commie socialist have me surrounded at the moment to addddd insult to injury....they all are irish! Oh boy oh boy...

It is pretty tame here. Is it just me or does it look like ChrisE has hijacked BroDeal's account? I think the moderators need to look into this.

BroDeal makes some good points but he should have known that he would get a ration of grief for speaking his mind.

Anyhow I am leaving this commie infested land for the socialist lands of Japan tomorrow. I am going to take a break from the forum because once in Nippon I have many things to do. One which includes running 2 Ekiden's and watching some very interesting Ekiden's....And much Beer drinking! yebisu Beer ...here I come..
Do explain, Glenn. Newfoundland to Nippon is quite a haul. Do they do Xmas over there, or are you just escaping the whole circus? Japanese beer is drinkable?

I sure don't know ChrisE as well as you do, but it had occurred to me that some of BD's recent, more bizarre pronouncements might have been the result of secret nocturnal probing by aliens. Bringing up Depardieu was just too whacky......
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  #5846  
Old 12-21-12, 13:43
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No I won't be thrilled Scott. As usual, your analysis misses the point.

Whether or not those other things will be addressed (and you're correct in pointing out they won't be, which is why I won't be thrilled), does not negate the necessity of the primary action to be taken. As I've said before, by now the US state and American society owes it to the memory of those 20 slaughtered children.
We owe it to those kids to do something that shifts the paradigm.

We've had assault weapons banns before. We will have them again. The situation won't improve. Why? Because we aren't serious about addressing the real issue.

Put a band aid on a spurting artery. It's what we excel at.
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  #5847  
Old 12-21-12, 13:50
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Originally Posted by Glenn_Wilson View Post
Ok I understand now. These Commie socialist have me surrounded at the moment to addddd insult to injury....they all are irish! Oh boy oh boy...

It is pretty tame here. Is it just me or does it look like ChrisE has hijacked BroDeal's account? I think the moderators need to look into this.

BroDeal makes some good points but he should have known that he would get a ration of grief for speaking his mind.

Anyhow I am leaving this commie infested land for the socialist lands of Japan tomorrow. I am going to take a break from the forum because once in Nippon I have many things to do. One which includes running 2 Ekiden's and watching some very interesting Ekiden's....And much Beer drinking! yebisu Beer ...here I come..
i think ChrisE has taken Brodeal Hostage and is making him post alll this. as military men we may have to put together a rescue mission
enjoy Japan and the beers , i'm heading to the hill counrty for german beers and sausage
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  #5848  
Old 12-21-12, 13:57
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Maybe not "ideologically biased" as much as influenced by the recent debate close to home. If I lived in the US, I would likely prioritise my distaste for the failings of unfetterred capitalism.

Of course the wealth of some is less "deserved" than that of others, although this remains a highly subjective judgement. Just as there are many who sponge off the welfare state, either passively (making lifestyle decisions to live off the state instead of through individual effort) or aggressively (collecting welfare or unemployment while working as undeclared). Some wealth, however, is the result of personal initiative and creativity, hard work, and risk taking. Should the fruits of this work be confiscated by the state?

There is a compromise to be found, which is likely situated somewhere between the French and the US systems/cultures.

Of course any legitimate social welfare system depends on a healthy political situation, which is far from the case here. They are all at the trough of public funds, corrupted by power and influence. It is scary when the government has the power to redistribute the wealth of a nation - and unlikely that this can happen in an acceptable way. No better than leaving the same power to the greedy capitalists.
Naturally there are abuses in any system, frenchfry. Yours is a reasoned analysis, which, however, places most emphasis on that end of the ideological spectrum that's fashionable within the confines of liberalism.

Of course there is lots of wealth that's generated through merit, then there's other wealth that's generated within the legal limits (whether there's actually any merit in this is debatable, however), and then there's still other wealth that's flat-out generated criminally (both within and beyond the legal constraits).

I'd say the great problem of our age has rather more to do with the free market legislation and its abuses, than any culture of assistentialismo you so deplore. While within the current system there certainly isn't any threat of a "redistribution of wealth" regime taking over. The recent public bailouts of the great financial banks are a demonstration of this, as is the Euro central bank's fiscal policy currently administered under Mario Dragi and the technocrats. We thus have a more serious issue at hand with wealth types two and three in today's democratic world, which, if properly addressed, may well render some of the worst abuses of welfare and the social state less fortuitous, while making more tolerable net worth inequality within the public arena. As aphronesis once inquired (I believe rhetorically): "why can't we make the economy more democratic?"

I think the more urbane thinkers when contemplating a United States of Europe may well have in mind a middle ground between US and Euro type capitalisms. However, they also realize that any economic union that doen't address the issues mentioned above and which doesn't render the economy more democratic, is a failure to progessive democracy.

Last edited by rhubroma; 12-21-12 at 14:09.
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  #5849  
Old 12-21-12, 14:00
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We owe it to those kids to do something that shifts the paradigm.

We've had assault weapons banns before. We will have them again. The situation won't improve. Why? Because we aren't serious about addressing the real issue.

Put a band aid on a spurting artery. It's what we excel at.
Va bene Scott. Your continuous missing the mark, means that I can't add anything of meaning to our debate. We're walking on two parallel paths whose routes never cross.

Paradigmatic shifts need to start somewhere, while there are plenty of civil examples to point the way. It's simply about a change of course, which in America, though, isn't so easy when political survivalists are bound to the NRA and their voting constituents. So if there is a paradigm to be altered, or indeed done away with entirely, here it is. Much of the rest follows.

Last edited by rhubroma; 12-21-12 at 14:10.
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  #5850  
Old 12-21-12, 14:00
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Originally Posted by rhubroma View Post
But it isn't simply about "responsible ownership." If it were, one could simply legislate to that. Though this isn't possible. Prohibitionism was a failure, because it was founded on a silly puritanical worldview that has nothing to do with imposing restriction son the sales of arms. Every other country in the so called developed world that has them in place also has far less gun related homicide rates. There is no more proof needed as to their effectivness and success.

It's thus rather about a hideous culture being egged on and abetted by a deplorable market ideology, as well as a featherbrained mentality that in America is particularly acute. Such performed mental habits have found popular expression in a number of diversions: from violent video games, to films, to peurile group activities like GI Joe commando survival adventures in the woods. There is, consequently, an entire market predicated upon promoting and even sexing up a bit the US arms culture.

Regulating the gun market more severely is but one of several measures necessary to counteract this trend. It starts there, however. Let's not kid ourselves on this point, as do many here.



How can alcohol be blamed for 100,000 deaths each year?

5% of all deaths from diseases of the circulatory system are attributed to alcohol.
15% of all deaths from diseases of the respiratory system are attributed to alcohol.
30% of all deaths from accidents caused by fire and flames are attributed to alcohol.
30% of all accidental drownings are attributed to alcohol.
30% of all suicides are attributed to alcohol.
40% of all deaths due to accidental falls are attributed to alcohol.
45% of all deaths in automobile accidents are attributed to alcohol.
60% of all homicides are attributed to alcohol.

(Sources: NIDA Report, the Scientific American and Addiction Research Foundation of Ontario.) Also see Alcohol Consumption and Mortality, Alcohol poisoning deaths, CDC report,

see, if we get rid of guns and alcohol we'll all be ****tin in tall cotton
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