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  #10291  
Old 12-21-12, 20:59
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The Hitch The Hitch is offline
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Originally Posted by JimmyFingers View Post
You are rock solid in your conviction Sky are doping. So for you there is no debate, so it is Sky fans 'dragging out' this thread, rather than simply accepting the inevitable truth.

However not everyone accepts what they are told. I d.
Don't know what this has to do with anything i posted but ill play. No.i do not expect anyone to take my opinion as inevitable truth any more than you do.

I would though expect some people to aknowledge the possibility that wiggins or froome may dope purely on the basis that people in their position have been caught many many many times before.

Im also rock solid in my conviction that nibali is doping.. But none of the threads where me and others promoted that opinion ever reaches 10 000 posts because there weren't many liquigas to defend it. Which goes back.to the original post which started this where the guy made about how the lenght of this thread is purely down to people being racist against sky. The nibali and movistar thread comparisons totally disprove this ridiculous argument.

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I have always qualified my remarks as opinion, since I simply don't know all the facts, so while you may be happy dismissing my opinion in the manner you have, I would never do the same to yours. I know there is every possibility you are right, but equally I know there is an alternative, in fact a myriad of alternatives that may mean Sky, like much of the peloton, is neither completely clean or completely dirty, just somewhere in between
And chapeau for that.
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Originally Posted by pre 2009 wiggins
If there's a 1% suspicion or doubt that a team is working with certain doctors, then they shouldn't be invited to the Tour de France - as simple as that.
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Last edited by The Hitch; 12-21-12 at 21:04.
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  #10292  
Old 12-21-12, 21:11
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will10 will10 is offline
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Originally Posted by biopass View Post
True. But the fact is that Rogers improved in the standings. I just ask if that isnt what a clean rider would do? Considering the facts that the average speed in the Tour is slower, the best climbers no longer perform like superhumans in the HC Climbs.

I know that Rogers have been in Ferraris training camps, and i know that alone is close to admitting that you are on the juice. But again, imo his performance suggest otherwise.
Rogers' career has included time working under Ferrari and a couple of years with T-Mobile's blood program out of Freiberg University. Rogers was competitive at the Tour in 2006/2007 which are widely recognised to have been dirty races. Yet in 2012 he openly admitted in the press that he was putting out the highest power figures of his career. A top 8 climber in the Tour. An astonishing 60km pull over the Glandon and Mollard on the La Touissure stage making certain GT winners look like chumps as they were tailed off one by one.

Rogers is undoubtedly the most suspicious of Sky's awesome foursome.
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  #10293  
Old 12-21-12, 21:13
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Originally Posted by biopass View Post
True. But the fact is that Rogers improved in the standings. I just ask if that isnt what a clean rider would do? Considering the facts that the average speed in the Tour is slower, the best climbers no longer perform like superhumans in the HC Climbs.

I know that Rogers have been in Ferraris training camps, and i know that alone is close to admitting that you are on the juice. But again, imo his performance suggest otherwise.
Rogers said himself that he was better than ever this year though.
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  #10294  
Old 12-21-12, 21:30
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Benotti69 Benotti69 is offline
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Originally Posted by biopass View Post
True. But the fact is that Rogers improved in the standings. I just ask if that isnt what a clean rider would do? Considering the facts that the average speed in the Tour is slower, the best climbers no longer perform like superhumans in the HC Climbs.

I know that Rogers have been in Ferraris training camps, and i know that alone is close to admitting that you are on the juice. But again, imo his performance suggest otherwise.
Consider the tours where multiple domestiques drop GC contenders on alps and cols. Then revaluate Sky's performance.
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  #10295  
Old 12-21-12, 21:32
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Libertine Seguros Libertine Seguros is offline
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Originally Posted by biopass View Post
True. But the fact is that Rogers improved in the standings. I just ask if that isnt what a clean rider would do? Considering the facts that the average speed in the Tour is slower, the best climbers no longer perform like superhumans in the HC Climbs.

I know that Rogers have been in Ferraris training camps, and i know that alone is close to admitting that you are on the juice. But again, imo his performance suggest otherwise.
But if the average speed gets slower and doping gets less, then the advantages of it become more pronounced, no?

In 1998 there were 20-something Riccardo Riccòs wearing out their brake pads on the switchbacks. In 2008 - which was not a clean Tour by any stretch of the imagination - Riccò stood out like a sore thumb. This is why Froome jumped out at me - his improvement was too much for this to be realistically used as a viable argument, because his improvement hadn't been on a level with anybody else... even Cobo. It had been far above and beyond, so it wasn't as simple as "clean Froome was left behind until péloton stopped doping", unless the entire péloton bar him was doping until the day of La Covatilla, then all stopped en masse. I also find it hard to include Rogers in the argument owing to the unlikelihood of his not having been part of that group of riders who ought to have been slowing down.

I remember some riders who had not been prominent pre-Puerto or during the Ferrari era who started performing at a higher level from 2007 onwards. In fact, I remember one particular case where a rider who had some very solid results in 2005 was being accused of coming from nowhere in 2007 and being an obvious doper, and I recall defending that rider as I felt it was grossly unfair to suggest that a guy must be doping, when with the péloton cleaning up and with him not performing up to that level pre-2007, it could equally have suggested, like you just did for Rogers, that that guy was (relatively) clean, and the slowing down of the péloton had brought him to the front. There wasn't the same weight of evidence against that guy than there was against Mick Rogers either.

That guy's name was Ezequiel Mosquera. Personally I thought the greater slur on Mosquera was the saying that he came out of nowhere. Mosquera's pre-2007 palmarès knocks spots off, say, Froome, and he had always done well in mountainous races and shown he was better the longer the climbs, with his recovery being the one real question mark about him prior to that Vuelta.
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Last edited by Libertine Seguros; 12-21-12 at 21:34.
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  #10296  
Old 12-21-12, 21:43
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Mellow Velo Mellow Velo is offline
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Originally Posted by The Hitch View Post
Don't know what this has to do with anything i posted but ill play. No.i do not expect anyone to take my opinion as inevitable truth any more than you do.

I would though expect some people to aknowledge the possibility that wiggins or froome may dope purely on the basis that people in their position have been caught many many many times before.

Im also rock solid in my conviction that nibali is doping.. But none of the threads where me and others promoted that opinion ever reaches 10 000 posts because there weren't many liquigas to defend it. Which goes back.to the original post which started this where the guy made about how the lenght of this thread is purely down to people being racist against sky. The nibali and movistar thread comparisons totally disprove this ridiculous argument.
You originally lay the blame at the door at Sky fans, but it takes two to tango.
How many posts did the Hog and Big Ring/Dear Wiggo make in those other team threads?

This thread died a while back and guess who brought it back to life, with nothing new to bring to the debate?
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  #10297  
Old 12-21-12, 22:01
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ferryman ferryman is offline
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Originally Posted by Mellow Velo View Post
You originally lay the blame at the door at Sky fans, but it takes two to tango.
How many posts did the Hog and Big Ring/Dear Wiggo make in those other team threads?

This thread died a while back and guess who brought it back to life, with nothing new to bring to the debate?
I was actually thinking of suggesting to the other mods on here that this thread is closed for 2012.

It's become stale with just thrust and parry without much else.

Not sure if there is a way to get a consensus on this without seeming to be favouring one side stopped me
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  #10298  
Old 12-21-12, 22:04
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The Hitch The Hitch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellow Velo View Post
You originally lay the blame at the door at Sky fans, but it takes two to tango.
How many posts did the Hog and Big Ring/Dear Wiggo make in those other team threads?

This thread died a while back and guess who brought it back to life, with nothing new to bring to the debate?
I didn't lay the blame on sky fans door. There not even any blame since i don't see what's wrong with a thread being long.

I responded to the poster who said the thread is long purely because of haters. the fact that sky fans also play a part in the length of the thread disprove his claim.
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The Hitch: Winner 2013 Vuelta cq game. Winner, Velorooms prediction game 2012, 2013 (still undefeated). Currently 2nd all time cq rankings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pre 2009 wiggins
If there's a 1% suspicion or doubt that a team is working with certain doctors, then they shouldn't be invited to the Tour de France - as simple as that.
journalist with integrity.
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  #10299  
Old 12-21-12, 22:05
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The Hitch The Hitch is offline
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Originally Posted by ferryman View Post
I was actually thinking of suggesting to the other mods on here that this thread is closed for 2012.

It's become stale with just thrust and parry without much else.

Not sure if there is a way to get a consensus on this without seeming to be favouring one side stopped me
Warn and sanction posters who you think are ruining the discussion, dont close the thread for everyone.
__________________
The Hitch: Winner 2013 Vuelta cq game. Winner, Velorooms prediction game 2012, 2013 (still undefeated). Currently 2nd all time cq rankings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pre 2009 wiggins
If there's a 1% suspicion or doubt that a team is working with certain doctors, then they shouldn't be invited to the Tour de France - as simple as that.
journalist with integrity.
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  #10300  
Old 12-21-12, 22:08
King Of The Wolds King Of The Wolds is offline
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Originally Posted by ferryman View Post
I was actually thinking of suggesting to the other mods on here that this thread is closed for 2012.

It's become stale with just thrust and parry without much else.

Not sure if there is a way to get a consensus on this without seeming to be favouring one side stopped me
Hardly worth it now, with 1 week to go, and it will all kick off again in the New Year when Sky start winning again.

I agree with the sentiment though. We've all, and I include myself within that, been regurgitating the same arguments and counter arguments for months, without any changing of opinions or anything new and tangible coming to light to stimulate something different.
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