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  #111  
Old 12-23-12, 09:41
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Originally Posted by theyoungest View Post
That's certainly the closest thing to a doping confession we've heard from mr. Boogerd. "First ask my teammates, because if I sit here and say all I know, I'll be the scapegoat."

And then another anonymous rider who says to the NOS they said to each other after a disaster Tour in 2009: okay, so either we join or we quit. And they decided to join.
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Originally Posted by classicomano View Post
Well looks like someone finally blew the lid off the Rabobank doping program and Boogerd is all about ready to come forward, but only if the rest are.
Boogerd has just wasted his last bit of credibility he had with the vitamin-excuse he made up.
Why does the press in the Netherlands waste time on all these Rabo dope program bull****, they weren't even winning the big races. The Dutch press is chasing Rabo into their grave, that's what's happening now. And Herbert Dijkstra is playing along real nicely. Only the fact that the NOS has asked him as a 'cycling expert' for this one, is enough for me.

The problem I'm having with the assumptions you guys make about the team-wide 'doping program' is that the source is unknown,
it needs some clarifying before exaggerating the whole story. The main source for the whole Leinders story are a staggering 6 lines in USADA's file.

It seems to me the doping was rather focused on the Tour riders. Leinders was appointed to win yellow for Rabo, they didn't want to know how he did it.
As long as there weren't any positives, no one from outside the medical staff and some riders would have seen anything.
The DS's and the direction could claim the innocence of their riders as long as Leinders and the doped riders did their homework.

What gets me too is that T Dekker was seeing another doctor in Italy for his doping, but he won't tell anything about that.
I think the riders who were doping were mostly on their own, the only evidence of a big program at Rabo is one sentence from the USADA report
taken way out of context and everyone is losing their minds in the Netherlands...
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  #112  
Old 12-23-12, 10:10
theyoungest theyoungest is offline
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Originally Posted by Pentacycle View Post
Boogerd has just wasted his last bit of credibility he had with the vitamin-excuse he made up.
Why does the press in the Netherlands waste time on all these Rabo dope program bull****, they weren't even winning the big races. The Dutch press is chasing Rabo into their grave, that's what's happening now. And Herbert Dijkstra is playing along real nicely. Only the fact that the NOS has asked him as a 'cycling expert' for this one, is enough for me.
Yeah, I'm not too convinced about the super doping program story either, for the international audience: Dijkstra is a tv commentator who tends to be wrong about every single fact in a race, who has very little inside info, and who knows more about speedskating. So it would be somewhat suprising if he were the one to uncover what no one else has been able to uncover. That being said, at the NOS he's a colleague of Boogerd, so in that sense maybe a bit easier to talk to.

The other, anonymous source could just as well have been someone like Remmert Wielinga or something, so that's still up in the air.

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What gets me too is that T Dekker was seeing another doctor in Italy for his doping, but he won't tell anything about that.
He has always denied it. That was what people in Holland assumed, "oh he went to the evil South and see what happened!" Cecchini was supposed to be the evil doctor who got him into doping. But Dekker himself said the source had to be found "closer to home".

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I think the riders who were doping were mostly on their own, the only evidence of a big program at Rabo is one sentence from the USADA report
taken way out of context and everyone is losing their minds in the Netherlands...
That's absolutely true. The Dutch press are certainly obsessed by their very own team with their very own doping program, but that's the Dutch for you and their Holier than thou-mentality.
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  #113  
Old 12-23-12, 10:20
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Originally Posted by Pentacycle View Post
Boogerd has just wasted his last bit of credibility he had with the vitamin-excuse he made up.
Why does the press in the Netherlands waste time on all these Rabo dope program bull****, they weren't even winning the big races. The Dutch press is chasing Rabo into their grave, that's what's happening now. And Herbert Dijkstra is playing along real nicely. Only the fact that the NOS has asked him as a 'cycling expert' for this one, is enough for me.

The problem I'm having with the assumptions you guys make about the team-wide 'doping program' is that the source is unknown,
it needs some clarifying before exaggerating the whole story. The main source for the whole Leinders story are a staggering 6 lines in USADA's file.

It seems to me the doping was rather focused on the Tour riders. Leinders was appointed to win yellow for Rabo, they didn't want to know how he did it.
As long as there weren't any positives, no one from outside the medical staff and some riders would have seen anything.
The DS's and the direction could claim the innocence of their riders as long as Leinders and the doped riders did their homework.

What gets me too is that T Dekker was seeing another doctor in Italy for his doping, but he won't tell anything about that.
I think the riders who were doping were mostly on their own, the only evidence of a big program at Rabo is one sentence from the USADA report
taken way out of context and everyone is losing their minds in the Netherlands...
good post.
indeed, odd to go after those Rabo riders looking for confessions, when every sane guy on earth already knows damn well what happened at Rabo (and in cycling in general). If Boogerd doesn't wanna confess, let the guy be.

Journalists should report the facts, regardless of confessions, the facts being that Rabo's topriders were on the juice like all other podium contenders, and that Leinders was a facilitator and enabler, a guy who arranged things. Not at a Ferrari scale, but very apt in a more discrete way. Less prizes but also less positives on his palmares than Ferrari.

p.s. Indeed, asking Herbert Dijkstra as an expert on Rabo-doping is like asking PhilL Ligett as an expert on the Armstrong case.

Last edited by sniper; 12-23-12 at 10:23.
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  #114  
Old 12-23-12, 10:51
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Fearless Greg Lemond Fearless Greg Lemond is offline
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Originally Posted by theyoungest View Post
Isn't it obvious? Harold Knebel (who replaced De Rooij) got rid of basically everyone involved in the Humanplasma/Rasmussen story. Leinders, Boogerd, Dekker, Menchov, recently Breukink. He got the other riders who were mentioned (Posthuma, Weening) to testify in Vienna.

And for all this he had very little evidence to go on in the first place.
Rasmussen: was fired during the 2007 Tour.
Boogerd: quitted in 2007
Dekker: let go in 2008 after a hell of a first half of the season [was still doping]
Menchov: 3th in Tour 2008, won Giro 2009, Vuelta 2007 etc etc, Knebel got rid of him?
Leinders: still there untill 2009
Breukink: let go because of the bad results

It is fair to say your arguments don't add up. The only thing that speaks for itself is the fact Boogerd was denied a staff place on Rabo.

Then the anonymous former Rabo cyclist who stated they only went on the epo after 1999. That would mean Boogerd was clean in 1998 when he was able to climb with the best of the best, ergo Pantani, Ullrich, etc etc? Yeah right.
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  #115  
Old 12-23-12, 11:23
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Originally Posted by Fearless Greg Lemond View Post
Then the anonymous former Rabo cyclist who stated they only went on the epo after 1999. That would mean Boogerd was clean in 1998 when he was able to climb with the best of the best, ergo Pantani, Ullrich, etc etc? Yeah right.
perhaps what the anonymous guy meant is that they reconsidered after 1999: one could imagine Rabo decided to go clean after the Festina-affair, saw it didn't work well for them, and reconsidered.
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  #116  
Old 12-23-12, 11:37
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GJB123 GJB123 is offline
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Originally Posted by Fearless Greg Lemond View Post
Rasmussen: was fired during the 2007 Tour.
Boogerd: quitted in 2007
Dekker: let go in 2008 after a hell of a first half of the season [was still doping]
Menchov: 3th in Tour 2008, won Giro 2009, Vuelta 2007 etc etc, Knebel got rid of him?
Leinders: still there untill 2009
Breukink: let go because of the bad results

It is fair to say your arguments don't add up. The only thing that speaks for itself is the fact Boogerd was denied a staff place on Rabo.

Then the anonymous former Rabo cyclist who stated they only went on the epo after 1999. That would mean Boogerd was clean in 1998 when he was able to climb with the best of the best, ergo Pantani, Ullrich, etc etc? Yeah right.
!998 was perhaps one of the cleaner TdF's remember after the Festina-debacle. A lot of riders were scared ****less after that.
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  #117  
Old 12-23-12, 11:38
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!998 was perhaps one of the cleaner TdF's remember after the Festina-debacle. A lot of riders were scared ****less after that.
A lot of the riders had also gone home.
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  #118  
Old 12-23-12, 11:51
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Originally Posted by Fearless Greg Lemond View Post
Rasmussen: was fired during the 2007 Tour.
Boogerd: quitted in 2007
Dekker: let go in 2008 after a hell of a first half of the season [was still doping]
Menchov: 3th in Tour 2008, won Giro 2009, Vuelta 2007 etc etc, Knebel got rid of him?
Leinders: still there untill 2009
Breukink: let go because of the bad results

It is fair to say your arguments don't add up. The only thing that speaks for itself is the fact Boogerd was denied a staff place on Rabo.

Then the anonymous former Rabo cyclist who stated they only went on the epo after 1999. That would mean Boogerd was clean in 1998 when he was able to climb with the best of the best, ergo Pantani, Ullrich, etc etc? Yeah right.
In fairness, most of "the best of the best" had already gone home by then.
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  #119  
Old 12-23-12, 11:53
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Pentacycle Pentacycle is offline
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Originally Posted by GJB123 View Post
!998 was perhaps one of the cleaner TdF's remember after the Festina-debacle. A lot of riders were scared ****less after that.
They were only being more cautious afterwards. It was obvious that the stuff had to be transported in a more discrete way. There's no reason to believe the riders that did take part in that Tour were any cleaner than the ones on the teams that were caught.
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  #120  
Old 12-23-12, 12:08
theyoungest theyoungest is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fearless Greg Lemond View Post
Rasmussen: was fired during the 2007 Tour.
Boogerd: quitted in 2007
Dekker: let go in 2008 after a hell of a first half of the season [was still doping]
Menchov: 3th in Tour 2008, won Giro 2009, Vuelta 2007 etc etc, Knebel got rid of him?
Leinders: still there untill 2009
Breukink: let go because of the bad results

It is fair to say your arguments don't add up. The only thing that speaks for itself is the fact Boogerd was denied a staff place on Rabo.
You can find a reason for all of them, the fact remains that Knebel let all of them go, eventually. He investigated the Vienna story, nothing came of it. He investigated the riders and staff about the team's past, nothing came of it. What was the guy supposed to do otherwise?

Knebel went into it with the best intentions, and he fulfilled most of them. From within the team he's known as very strictly anti-doping, and using the measures to reinforce that. Unfortunately he was haunted by the ghosts of the past.

Quote:
Then the anonymous former Rabo cyclist who stated they only went on the epo after 1999. That would mean Boogerd was clean in 1998 when he was able to climb with the best of the best, ergo Pantani, Ullrich, etc etc? Yeah right.
I don't see where that particular rider says Boogerd was clean before?

Last edited by theyoungest; 12-23-12 at 12:10.
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